Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)

I thank Senators for their contributions to this thoughtful debate. I will address my comments to Senator Quinn. Last week, Ministers from Scotland, Wales, Ireland, the Isle of Man, Guernsey and Jersey had a most interesting discussion at the British-Irish Council. It was amazing to learn how similar are the circumstances prevailing in the various jurisdictions. Scotland, for instance, either has a language Act or is in the process of enacting one, while Wales already has legislation on languages which it intends to strengthen. Both countries regard these laws as vital bulwarks for minority languages.

The Welsh language is in a robust position. Speaking to my Welsh colleague, it was interesting to learn that Ireland is not in a unique position because Wales is experiencing precisely the same problem as we are. Welsh is taught in every school in Wales but the education system does not produce a large number of Welsh speakers. We teased out how we deal collectively with this problem and our discussions were most instructive.

On a broader matter, the Official Languages Act sought, in a minimalist fashion, to provide that Irish speakers will be entitled to certain basic services. It did not make any impositions on English speakers but laid down and made available to Irish speakers a small number of rights.

One of the problems about all debates on the language is that the truth is the first casualty. I saw estimates of the cost of translating official documents running into millions of euro but when I asked Departments how much the translation of documents under the relevant section of the Act had cost them in 2005, I learned that the sum total of these costs between 15 Departments and the Office of Public Works was €374,000. The cost of producing the same documents in English in terms of time and effort was far in excess of that figure.

The current cost of translation can be reduced to approximately €100,000 per annum because many documents, for example, annual reports and accounts, are produced in the same format every year. Machine translation facilities are available which will automatically translate any sentence that appeared in a previous document. It will even change figures if one inputs the changes. As Senators will be aware, the few documents requiring translation — strategy statements and so forth — tend to take a similar format every year.

The Official Languages Act has not cost a large amount of money. It has, however, freed up the incessant demands on my Department arising from the need to raid my Department's small budget for the Irish language every time someone needed to produce a document, however minor, in Irish.

Senator Quinn referred to the controversy arising from the naming of An Daingean or Dingle or Daingean Uí Chúis. Let us return to the facts. Prior to the enactment of the Official Languages Act, no Irish place name, with the exception of places such as Dún Laoghaire and Cobh, had official status and the legal entitlement to use the Irish language form was not clear in certain circumstances. The issue of whether I had a right to use the name "Corr na Móna" on a planning application had to be cleared up and we set about rectifying the matter. What did we do? We decided that, with the exception of the Gaeltacht, the Irish language version of a place name would have the same status as the English version. This would be a matter of choice for citizens. For the first time, there was no ambiguity and if a person in Donnybrook wanted to use the name "Domhnach Broc", there would be no question that he or she could use the Irish version in all cases and it would have equivalence with Donnybrook. Making this choice available afforded a right without removing any other rights.

In the case of the Gaeltacht we provided specific, legal protection and provision for the use of the English language on equal terms with Irish. Incidentally, the same position did not apply in reverse. We provided that the Irish version of a place name would be the official version but in every circumstance the use of the English language version would be specifically protected in law, without equivocation, except in three circumstances. The first of these was that the Irish version shall be used in the event that the Oireachtas passes an Act or makes a statutory order which refers to a town in the Gaeltacht. This provision does not affect citizens on a day-to-day basis.

The second exception was a provision that the Minister could make an order regarding Ordnance Survey maps. The only order made thus far relates to large-scale maps. That these maps were not bilingual effectively forced us to do all our business through English because they showed towns in the Gaeltacht such as An Ceathrú Rua and Ros Muc as Carraroe and Rosmuck, respectively. Given the choice, we decided that large-scale maps, as opposed to tourism maps, would show the Irish version of place names in the Gaeltacht.

The third exception related to the vexed issue of signposts. There may be days when I wished former Minister, Bobby Molloy, did not do what he did. However, Bobby did what Bobby did and, in my view, left an impractical mess. In Eyre Square in Galway, the signpost showed Carraroe and Ceathrú Rua. By the time one got to Barna, Carraroe had disappeared but the map still showed only Carraroe. It was not too difficult with Carraroe but when one was dealing with a place such as An Fhairche or Clonbur, one really had a pain in one's head. I decided this had to be dealt with once and for all because I spent much of my life stopping at crossroads in Connemara to help people who were lost. The maps were saying one thing and the signposts were saying another.

I examined the options. The first was probably the most attractive, and I considered it seriously. It was that all signposts would show Carraroe and Ceathrú Rua and An Fhairche agus Clonbur, in other words, be bilingual both inside and outside the Gaeltacht. However, I said to myself: "Go there at your peril". While the people of the 1960s would not do it, the children nowadays would be out with the paint.

The second issue was that it is irrational to accept the concept that tourists — signposts are for tourists, not for people who can find their way around — in Eyre Square can understand only Spiddal but when they get to Barna can suddenly understand An Spidéal. My logic was that if the tourist could understand it in Barna, they could understand it in Eyre Square. The problem for the tourist was the map. The map showed only "Spiddal" and the sign showed only "An Spidéal" and so forth. I decided the way around it was to make all the maps bilingual and have the signposts consistently, inside and outside the Gaeltacht, showing the same thing.

I did something equally radical in the opposite direction. There was a nonsensical situation in the Gaeltacht, and it is amazing nobody ever talked about it, whereby if one found a signpost in the Gaeltacht for somewhere outside such as Westport, the signpost showed only Cathair na Mart, which is Westport in Irish. When one's map showed only Westport, how was one to find Cathair na Mart? If one looks at this from the tourism point of view, there were only two realistic choices, that is, have the map bilingual and the signs in Irish only or have both the map and the signs bilingual. However, the sign should show the same thing inside or outside the Gaeltacht. It is irrational, from a tourism point of view, to have it any other way.

I decided that the signpost inside as well as outside the Gaeltacht for a placename outside the Gaeltacht should show, for example, Westport and Cathair na Mart. People will criticise me for that but since there are two official forms of the name, it is rational that the signposts do not show Westport and Cathair na Mart outside and then only Cathair na Mart inside the Gaeltacht. I made the decision, therefore, that they would show both forms of the name; that is, a signpost in Doire na Maol would show Galway and Gaillimh.

Whatever one can say about the decisions I made, when one looks at it from a tourism point of view there is a certain consistency. There is an irony in this. I have been talking to my friends in Galway and have said to them, "By the way, do you notice anything strange in Galway these days?" They say they have not. When I ask if anyone has complained to them, they say they have not. I approached the radio station presenter, who hosts the equivalent of the Joe Duffy "Liveline" radio show, and asked if he had noticed anything in Galway. He said "No". I told him that somebody has carefully taken down Spiddal from every signpost around the city and all that is left is An Spidéal.

We have had a fantastic tourism season and the people of south Connemara have said it was the best ever. People in Spiddal said it was very good once the season got going. Apparently, the signpost issue was never raised by anybody in the tourist office. The simple reason is that the map shows Spiddal and An Spidéal. Foreign tourists are used to the bilingual situation. They know to keep following the signpost for An Spidéal until they find it. The interesting thing is that this happened and nobody paid any attention to it.

The issue of democracy was raised. We are all democrats but we make laws which all citizens must accept, even if they do not like them. We make laws every day that apply across the country. That is what we are elected to do. If one small group in a small village does not like the smoking ban, we tell them it is the law of the land. My problem is that 2,300 names appear to have great acceptance and one does not. I am told I am the big bad wolf because I am imposing something on the 2,300 with which they are not exactly comfortable. I am willing to listen to the people of Daingean Uí Chúis but it is a little disingenuous to say that there is a great flouting of democracy to expect that if one lives in the Gaeltacht and enjoys the great privilege of all that goes with it, one should do what the Gaeltacht people do. Nobody can pass a law which states that one can smoke in a pub in Caherciveen but one cannot smoke in a pub in Dublin. We tend to make our laws to cover specific areas or specific individuals.

The difficulty with this has been that to row back on the process would be to stir up an even bigger hornets nest of discontent. Even in Kerry there is great discontent. This issue went to the board of Údarás na Gaeltachta, which is a body elected by the people of the Gaeltacht, before I signed the order. We consulted with the board. D'aonghuth or unanimously it supported what I was doing. I will discuss it with the members of the board at the end of the week when I meet them again. The hurtful and damaging aspect of this is that newspaper editorials claim we never consulted. We did consult. I do not mean simply putting an advertisement in the newspaper. We wrote to all the community councils and told them what we intended to do. We instituted debates on all the radio stations, magazines and so forth. We went out of our way to try to make people aware of what we were doing.

I foresaw huge perils in this with the forms of the names. There is one form I do not like for Dooros which is Dúros. I would spell it Dubhros. I thought there would be murder locally but they did not complain so I did not change it. It would not be my choice of spelling because the name comes from dubh ros.

Senator Kitt mentioned Gort Inse Guaire versus Gort. What apparently happened is that a person named McLysaght, at the beginning of the last century, had an idea that an Irish name had to be long. He used names such as Daingean Uí Chúis, Gort Inse Guaire, Nás na Ríogh and so forth. In some cases, such as An Daingean agus Daingean Uí Chúis, there is authentic ancient validity for both versions. However, in other cases, there is little, such as Nás na Ríogh. That was only a reference to Naas in a poem. In that case it was similar to saying Galway of the tribes in a poem. That is all right in a poem but please do not put it on our signposts. We will stick with the simple Galway in English and Gaillimh in Irish.

Of course, as these names were taught in schools and were revivalist names, they caught on. However, the commission examined these. The commission is composed of a broad range of experts, ordinary people and people from the Gaeltacht and when it examines these names, one of the big guiding factors is what term the last native Irish speakers used if there are no Irish speakers in the area. The commission will testify to the fact that around Gort it was known as An Gort, not Gort Inse Guaire.

I recall a case when the then Minister, Deputy de Valera, overruled the commission on my advice. An Cnoc is the correct and historical name for Knock in County Mayo. In the 1930s a priest created the name Cnoc Mhuire or Mary's Hill. It caught on in the Gaeltacht and if one says, "Beidh oilithreacht go Cnoc Mhuire" or "There will be a pilgrimage to Knock", everybody knows it is Knock in County Mayo and not An Cnoc in Inverin. That is part of the ordinary discourse in the Gaeltacht so the official name was changed to Cnoc Mhuire.

I must defend the commission and its integrity in terms of the detailed work it does and the historical references on which it bases its work. In the case of An Daingean, I have no particular hang-up between Daingean Uí Chúis or An Daingean. However, it is wrong to say that a civil servant dreamed up this in the 1920s and it is a slight on the seabhac, Pádraig Ó Siochfhradha, to say it. An Daingean is historically well attested and so is Daingean Uí Chúis so which won the day? I can tell the Senator what won the day for An Daingean. If one goes back to the west Kerry Gaeltacht and talks Irish to the native speakers, they invariably use An Daingean. I was slightly amused to hear one of those proposing Daingean Uí Chúis — a colleague of the Senator — speaking about a sewerage scheme for the town of Dingle on Radio na Gaeltachta. He referred to a town called An Daingean five times in the interview and he was not talking about County Offaly. In reality, that is what they all use all of the time. If they want to discard that and use Daingean Uí Chúis I have no hang up about it, but to say that it is controversial to reaffirm what has been there since 1960 is to misrepresent the facts in the case.

My memory of the legal advice is contrary to what Senator O'Toole stated. I am always open to looking at things again, but I am bound by the Attorney General's advice. If the members of Kerry County Council suggest to me that they want a new name for the town of Dingle, that is, Dingle/Daingean Uí Chúis and that they want it done under the 1946 Act, I will look for further legal advice on the issue to see if it is legally possible. If it is, it must be taken into account in the further discussion. If it is not legally possible, I hope the House recognises that it is not acceptable for a Minister to act outside the law. In other words, I am bound by the Attorney General's advice whether he is right or wrong. That is a basic tenet by which I am ruled as a Minister.

The option to rescind the order is handy, but I am trying to find out if there is a snag to it as I do not wish to mislead anybody. I want to check this before people get into a hullabaloo about this and ask for things that they do not really want. I always thought that the people of Dingle wanted Dingle to be an official English language name and that Daingean Uí Chúis would be the official Irish language name, but not one composite name. A composite name would be very awkward, but if I am wrong, I am wrong. If I rescind the order, my understanding is that we revert to Dingle, but I must check what effect that has on any Irish language version. The 1973 Act has now been overtaken by the 2003 Act and we might end up without any Irish language version of the place. Before I do that, the people of Dingle/An Daingean/ Daingean Uí Chúis should be entitled to know the legal effect of any further actions we take on this issue.

Ba mhaith liom buíochas a ghlacadh leis an Leas-Chathaoirleach as ucht an cúpla nóiméad breise a thabhairt dom. Shíl mé go raibh sé tábhachtach go mbeadh deis agam freagra comh-cuimsitheach agus is féidir a thabhairt. Go raibh maith agat.