Joe O'Toole (Independent)

I commend Senator White on producing this report, which has fostered an important debate. I wish to discuss the losses to the economy caused by ageist policies and structures. The Shinto religion in Japan, which is the basis of much of that country's development, is centred on the experience of previous generations.

For a similar debate on this issue ten years ago, I asked some experts from Boston College and other institutions in the United States to examine legislation pertaining to age and retirement. I believe we have gotten it all wrong. I once met a senior employee with IBM who wanted to continue working but did not wish to do so full-time. That is a common feeling among people who approach what is referred to as the retirement age.

When people go from working full-time one day to doing nothing the next, they suffer negative impacts, their workplace loses an experienced employee and the economy becomes less productive. This issue has led to changes in pension legislation in the United States. In some Irish companies, once an employee begins to draw a pension, he or she is no longer involved with the company's operations. Take, for example, somebody who spent his or her career working in the ESB and who achieved a position in senior management before taking up a retirement package. The person knows all the secrets of the job, so the company should not want to lose him or her. However, because the ESB is prevented by law from continuing to employ a pensioned staff member, the person will go to work on a contract basis for Northern Ireland Electricity or Viridian. He or she continues to receive a pension from the ESB while selling his or her expertise to the opposition. That is just one glaring example of the anomalies we are creating. The United States has changed the legislation to allow a person earn a salary and receive a pension at the same time.

Someone who reaches retirement age and is entitled to a full pension may wish to work half time. He or she gets half his or her pension payment, because he or she is on half his or her pension, and half his or her salary as pay, because he or she is working half-time. On the amount a person is paid, he or she must pay normal taxes and continue to make a pension contribution. That is done in a flexible fashion. The man from IBM to whom I spoke does not like the weather in New England during the winter so he works six months of the year there when the sun comes out and the snow starts to melt. As soon as the fall ends, he moves like a snow goose to Florida and spends the next six months there. What is wrong with that? Everyone is a winner.

Our legislation must be changed to deal with such a situation. The Minister for Social and Family Affairs has very progressive ideas on some of these pensions issues and if he was let have his way at Government level, he would implement some of them. If we were to do that, we would all gain. I guarantee that if we are all here in five years' time discussing this issue, we will have reached, more or less, the limit of bringing women back into the workplace from domestic duties. We will be looking around for where we might find more productivity and expertise. We will find it among people of an older age. That will be particularly easy with a more IT-tuned society and generation. In many cases, people will be able to contribute from home by taking on project, consultancy and other work. We need to think differently and with flexibility. We also need to change the laws to allow older people to continue to make a contribution if they so wish.

I have retired three times and I would like to retire three or four more times before I am finished. I look forward to retirement but I do not believe I will ever look forward to not working. I am not a workaholic either; I am a "playaholic" as much as I am anything else. One wants to be able to move on and do different things. I would like to be planning my next project the day they lower me down under. I could never see myself doing anything different. Even if I am sitting in a chair, I will want to be doing something. There are plenty of people like that. If there is a contribution to be made, we should let people make that contribution to the economy and gain from it.

Previous speakers, and Senator Leyden, in particular, referred to nursing and retirement home support levels and so on. It is not a reflection on anybody or anything but every time one walks into a nursing home, there is a sense of loss. One wonders if people are getting the best care. That is nothing to do with the running of the homes but one wonders if people are making their fullest contribution. It is great if they are but if they are not, it is sad. We need to ensure people in nursing homes are constantly motivated, whether artistically or intellectually by way of discussions.

There are two elements to the State's support for nursing and retirement homes. It is not only a question of providing financial support to people who are living in such situations, which is hugely important, but in the same way as there is a curriculum in preschools and in primary schools, there should also be a curriculum in places where the elderly are institutionalised. In a democracy and a civilised society in which we talk about education from the cradle to the grave, that is not too much to ask.

The idea that education might stop at a particular point bears no resonance with reality. The truth is that we keep learning until the day we die. People may have ailments or disabilities which might stop that from happening but when we look at what is going on in various nursing homes and at how people are looked after, which is a matter of much debate at present, I would like us to look at the positive side of that. I would like to see a curriculum of activities, learning experiences and new experiences which would be available in those institutions.

Many speakers have made much more far-reaching and specific points on ageism but it is important to note that these benches ensured age was a ground for discrimination in the Employment Equality Act or the discrimination legislation. A long and positive discussion on ageism has been taking place in this House and I welcome this debate.