Joe O'Toole (Independent)

The concept of a petitions system is important because it involves the engagement between people and parliament. I was a member of the Sub-Committee on Seanad Reform with Senators O'Rourke, Brian Hayes, Dardis and Ryan. It was on this committee that this issue was first raised. When considering Seanad reform, I examined the process in other Parliaments. I was interested in the New Zealand model because it moved from a bicameral to a unicameral system. As it was a Westminster, Anglophone style Parliament, I was curious how it managed this change. In its Bills procedure, it had a five Stages system similar to our own. When it moved over to a unicameral system, extra Stages were simply added. In effect, there were three different forms of Second Stage. The last form of Second Stage allowed for amendments made by a special committee to examine that Stage. This part of the Stage required the New Zealand Parliament to invite civic groups to make representations on the legislation.

My report facilitated discussion of this issue by the Sub-Committee on Seanad Reform. Such a system can work well, even in a country like New Zealand which presents geographical difficulties, being a long, narrow country. The parliamentarians employed various strategies. If they believed a group had genuine locus standi and relevant insight on a particular issue, they would pay its expenses to come to Wellington and make a presentation. At other times, the special Second Stage committee went out to meet people in their localities. This worked well and it is something I recommend in our case.

We should also look to some of the existing Oireachtas committees. I made a propsal to the Joint Committee on Arts, Sport, Tourism, Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs that it should visit Gaeltacht areas to listen to and talk with people there, but it could not find its way to do this. The Joint Committee on Enterprise and Small Business, on the other hand, is already engaged in such activity. Senator Kitt has attended one of its meetings in Ballinasloe in his own constituency.

These meetings are attended by a wide range of people, from business, labour, chamber of commerce and educational backgrounds. In addition, the committee always invites local post-primary school pupils to make a brief presentation. I believed this element to be ground breaking. Speaking recently about the connection between education and industry, however, a senior industrialist told me that the organisers of trade shows in Germany, which is the most advanced state in Europe in this regard, all insist that local post-primary schools are involved and contribute to the exhibitions.

I raised the issue of consultation with interested groups with the Leader some time ago. At the time the Disability Bill was going through the House, we agreed in principle it was an obvious example of where such consultaiton could work. There were so many groups with clearly defined disability agendas and the idea was that we would seek their views on Second Stage. This never came about but I do not blame the Leader for that; the fault lay with all of us. I invited some of these groups in for discussions after Second Stage but this contact turned out to be more of a briefing than the engagement which I envisaged.

A consultative approach can work. Senator Ryan will be extremely pleased to hear that I was at a meeting on Monday night where the general cry related to the difficulties people encounter in trying to talk to parliamentarians and put their view across on a particular issue. This was at a meeting i nDaingean Uí Chúis nuair a bhíodar ag plé ainm na háite. The attendees would sincerely welcome the opportunity to come and talk to Oireachtas Members chun ath-mheon mar gheall ar an díospóireacht seo atá ar siúl a chur faoi bhráid an Oireachtais. Their belief was that the legislation in question went through the Acht teanga while they were effectively deprived of any form of consultation. I am no longer jousting with Senator Ryan; this is a serious point.