Brendan Ryan (Labour)

I will not go into too much detail. Smoking has never been a vice that I could see the point of. I can see the point of every other vice. If smoking was not addictive, people would give it up very quickly because I do not believe it gives any great long-term satisfaction. It is something people start and they then become addicted and cannot give up. By the time they realise it is doing them health damage, they find it extraordinarily difficult and begin to rationalise it. If it was not addictive, most people would not stick at it for very long. This is a very serious issue even though I am making the point in a good-humoured way.

I have a few suggestions for the Minister of State. I fully support the idea of a minimum amount of 20 cigarettes per packet, which I would prefer to be a minimum of 200 but that is a separate issue. I do not believe in prohibition in most cases for substances that are currently prohibited but that is not to say I would legalise them because that would not be possible. Prohibition does not work very well. However, one can take constructive, concerted action to reduce accessibility. It may be worth considering whether cigarettes should be available only in premises which are to a degree restricted to persons over 18 years, such as licensed premises, where people under 18 should not really be present other than accompanied by an adult. The purchase of cigarettes or tobacco products should be restricted to places where only people over 18 have routine and regular access. There is a case to be made that all third level education centres and all training centres should prohibit the sale of cigarettes in any shops in those premises or anywhere there are people in the most vulnerable age group. We should seriously consider whether shops within a half mile radius of a second level school are appropriate places to sell cigarettes. I suggest a town like my own home town, Athy, or Newbridge, towns of 10,000 population, should have one or two places selling cigarettes. These could be identified as the places where one could buy cigarettes. Cigarettes should not be part of the normal range of products on sale in normal shops. I fully support some of my colleagues in the view that where retailers sell cigarettes to people under age, the same succession of penalties that arise in the case of pubs that sell to people under age should apply. These include various warnings followed by a closedown for a week. I believe many retailers would give up selling cigarettes because of the nuisance value involved if such penalties were in existence. I am informed the margin of profit is minuscule and that cigarettes are only sold to encourage people to purchase other products. There is a case for a steady succession of measures to reduce the number of places in which cigarettes can be bought. Cigarettes should not be sold in any place where large numbers of young people congregate, such as outside cinemas. None of these will end the effects of smoking, but it should be made more difficult for people under 18 to be anywhere they can get their hands on cigarettes.

There is a genuine case to be made about the price of cigarettes. I do not know if much can be done about it as I appreciate the argument that if the price is increased a huge incentive is provided for smuggling. I accept that, but I believe the issue is worth reconsidering.

I will mention some issues that I know to be true because I have been told about them, rather than witnessing them myself. Apparently there is a practice in many rural areas of a certain flexibility in pub closing times, and ashtrays may appear when the doors close at 11.30 p.m. An old-fashioned environment is then reinstated. Another example was reported to me by a publican in a part of Munster during the European elections. I was told that every Saturday afternoon people come in to see the Premiership matches. The doors are locked and the ashtrays are put out for the duration of the match, as these people will not come in to see a football match if they have to go outside to smoke.

It is time we spoke in a language that makes sense. The tobacco industry is made up of a form of drug baron. It has no more moral justification than Colombian drug barons for its existence. It serves no useful social or human purpose. Therefore I suggest to the Minister of State that as a fundamental principle of public policy, the National Treasury Management Agency and the National Pensions Reserve Fund should not invest in any industry which forms part of the tobacco industry. I would go as far as to state that our whole pensions industry, a major investor, should have a disincentive attached to investment in tobacco products.

There is no redeeming quality in tobacco, and it is an evil and dangerous product that has done enormous harm to people. It would not be continued in use if it was not inherently addictive. The idea of my and other people's pension funds being invested in an industry which will shorten people's lives seems to be a contradiction. I welcome the progress that has been made but I recognise more must be done.