David Norris (Independent)

I will provide the Minister with another term he may use, "invincible ignorance". How about that? There is a good old fashioned ring to it. I believe a child-centred, preventative policy would be better. If we are to learn from the experience in Great Britain, a significant problem with ASBOs has been the fact that, unusually, the names and addresses of under-age people are released by the court in a policy which will be familiar in this House as one of my colleagues continually refers to it — naming and shaming. I do not believe this is a good idea. I wonder if under this legislation we will have the same situation where low-level British-based tabloids publish the names and addresses of young people in the newspapers. I sincerely hope this will not happen. It has also happened that photographs of young people were published, which is dreadful.

With regard to the making of anti-social behaviour orders, there is shift in the burden of proof, which is on the balance of probability rather than beyond reasonable doubt. I am sure the Minister is aware of what has happened in Great Britain, which is that a reliance has developed on hearsay evidence, which is admissible. This means that an application can be made on the basis of either anonymous reports, complaints where the sources are known, complaints where the source is known but not disclosed or reports by the police in the course of their duties where the source is either unknown or undisclosed. This would almost lead to guilt by attainder. That is problematic, especially in situations where the initial behaviour while aggravating, annoying, a nuisance and all the rest of it, has not escalated to the level of a criminal offence. If an ASBO is issued and it is contravened, the person can go to prison. If it is possible for an ASBO to be issued on foot of hearsay evidence this would be a serious matter that should cause us to reflect.

The experience in Britain is again instructive in this regard. In both England and Wales, breaches of ASBOs occur in approximately one third of cases and, of these, half the perpetrators end up in custody for behaviour which does not constitute an imprisonable offence. This is significant. The system has been described as a "geographical lottery" by a respected professor. I could name the districts in Dublin, for example, where ASBOs will be rife. People from these deprived areas will be put in prison for offences that are not of themselves punishable by prison sentences.

In regard to the situation in Britain, Professor Andrew Ashworth of Oxford University states, "The combined effect means that people are being sent to prison for committing a non-criminal act such as entering a part of town when banned or for an offence which has a maximum penalty of a fine". He continues, "Such provisions not only turn the criminal law upside down but do so when safeguards are sidelined because the key proceedings are civil". This is the reason for my hesitation and uncertainty in regard to ASBOs. I am aware their introduction will be politically popular. I will undoubtedly get negative feedback for raising questions about them, if anybody is paying attention to the proceedings of the House at 9 p.m. It is highly unlikely that any of this will be reported anywhere. I have, however, discovered some of my constituents are highly intelligent and watch these proceedings on their computers. I may look forward to several snotty e-mails or letters in coming days.

It is undoubtedly a politically popular move that will play well in the Irish equivalent of Peoria. I wonder, however, whether it is in the interests of young people. I oppose sections 113 to 119, inclusive, because I remain to be convinced in this regard.