David Norris (Independent)

I thank the Minister. I will do my best to ensure that they are. We already have a solution to that problem without resorting to ASBOs. The Taoiseach was quite right when he stated the Bill is fairly draconian. The section relating to people engaging in offensive conduct in public is a similar situation. What constitutes offensive conduct is any unreasonable behaviour which may, with regard to all the circumstances, be likely to cause serious offence or serious annoyance to any person who is or might reasonably be expected to be aware of such behaviour. In an earlier section they do not even have to be aware. The behaviour may be causing annoyance to nobody but a garda may say it might have cause in certain circumstances. The aspect of the Bill concerned with public behaviour is fairly draconian.

In his contribution on the preceding section, the Minister stated that perhaps after two years we should examine the operation of ASBOs in the light of experience. I welcome the fact that the Minister is prepared to do that. However, we do have experience in this area. One only has to look across the water, which is basically where the provision came from. If I am correct, ASBOs are a British invention. They were introduced in 1999 in England and Wales in circumstances of fairly considerable controversy, even though in the British Parliament it was possible to present to the Houses significant evidence of a very serious disturbance in poor housing estates where there was harassment, intimidation, vandalism and so on.

One of the ways British ASBOs worked was to displace people. They moved the problem on. One of the difficulties I have with these ASBOs is that they were banishment orders but they did not address the issue of problem children. In recent years we have introduced a child-centred approach where there is a diversionary tactic. The Children Act 2001 appears to go directly against the introduction of ASBOs because its aim is to try to get under-age offenders out of the penal system and into a much more positive environment, which is what I would welcome.

I am not sure the Minister or Government spokespersons have yet made the kind of consistent, sustained case about extensive incidents of this kind of behaviour. Perhaps it does happen, but as I suggested with regard to drinking, by-laws and other measures already exist under which these issues can be tackled and we have taken on board the principle of diverting juvenile offenders away from the criminal fraternity and into an environment in which their problems may be more easily resolved. The experience in Great Britain has shown that children or young adults are the principal targets of these kind of orders, and in particular, those who are marginalised. At first the number of ASBOs issued were quite low at 104, but they have rocketed up in recent years to more than 2,600 between November 2003 and February 2005. There has been a considerable expansion of the number of ASBOs issued in England and Wales.

There is a view that these provisions are contrary to the various obligations of the State, both domestic and international, towards children, such as Article 3 of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, which requires that the best interests of the child must be of primary consideration in all actions taken concerning him or her. In the case of ASBOs, we are worried about the impact on the neighbours. Although the situations involve children, we are not focusing on the child and the reasons for its dysfunction. I have no doubt that I will be regarded as a bleeding heart liberal or a pointy head academic even though I have retired from university but it appears to me that it is a——