Derek McDowell (Labour)

Section 32 inserts a new section 4 in substitution of section 4 of the principal Act. Subsection (3) of the new section 4 states:

An applicant for a firearm certificate shall supply to the issuing person the information requested in the application form and such further information as the issuing person may require in the performance of the performance of the person's functions under this Act, including [a number of items that follow].

There are 220,000 shotguns in Ireland. Are there to be 220,000 medical examinations and, if so, how often? Is a psychiatrist or GP to meet every applicant for renewal of a shotgun licence to ensure he or she is still sane?

What can we do on this issue that is practical? It is easy to lay down a method in advance, but does the Opposition really want every applicant to meet his or her GP to prove his or her sanity and have the GP carry out a psychological evaluation? If so, fair enough, but the paperwork involved will be prodigious. We have enough problems with eye tests for the elderly to determine suitability to drive. Is every one of the 220,000 shotgun licenceholders in the country to be submitted to a compulsory psychological evaluation? How is this to be done? It is not so easy.

Supposing a person had a nervous breakdown at the age of 20 and applied for a firearms certificate aged 45. Will the local superintendent have to carry out an inquiry?

What constitutes a psychological reason which would, in every case, be sufficient to withhold a firearms certificate? If someone is just an obtuse old loner living alone or a cranky old divil, must he or she be sent to a general practitioner for a full psychiatric evaluation or to a clinical psychologist for a psychological evaluation? These are questions which must be posed in this context.

The great majority of shotgun licenceholders never do anything untoward with their weapons. Only a tiny handful of people have used licensed firearms to commit an act of violence on another person. The number is infinitesimal and almost negligible from a statistical point of view.

In section 35 provision is made for the revocation of a certificate. If, for example, the Garda authorities become aware that Mr. Bloggs was recently sent to hospital because of psychiatric problems, has been behaving very strangely, threatening his neighbours or behaving totally out of character, it is open to them to apply to revoke the firearms certificate on the grounds that he is no longer a person who can, without danger to public safety or security of the peace, be permitted to possess a firearm.

While I do not want to anticipate the report of Mr. Justice Barr, in the case of the incident at Abbeylara there may have been knowledge among the local gardaí that there was a case for the revocation of a particular firearms certificate. I do not want to comment on that but we cannot operate on the basis that everyone must prove that he or she is not a risk, to a mathematical extent, before we issue a firearms certificate. The amount of Garda time taken up with issuing firearms certificates is considerable. That is one of the reasons we are moving from annual to three-year licences. The amount of time spent processing even run of the mill renewals is significant. If we are to have gardaí checking out medical and psychiatric reports, determining whether such reports are originals or photocopies and so forth, we will be in difficulty.

Senator Henry will agree that many people who develop endogenous or exogenous depression could have an episode of psychiatric illness which might have little or nothing to do with their suitability, 40 years later, to take up clay pigeon shooting. It is easy for us to put the superintendent or local gardaí in the position of being the judge of the suitability of every applicant and it is also easy to be wise after the event. However, we do not do this with kitchen or bread knives. We do not license them but I suspect that much more damage is done in this country with such implements in an average week than is done with shotguns.

We must try to keep things in perspective. The situation here is not the same as that which exists in the United Kingdom. An incident such as the Dunblane episode is very unlikely to happen in Ireland because the right to possess firearms is much more restricted here. Restricted firearms are rarely the subject of an authorisation. That is something with which we must live.

I appeal to the House to bear in mind that I cannot, through provisions in this Bill, ensure that nobody will ever use a shotgun in a dispute with neighbours. People will get into fiery tempers, they will drink, get overwrought and so forth and they may fire a shotgun by way of warning or bring one to a row. We all pray that people will not use their weapon in those circumstances but sometimes they will. That is the way things are. I imagine that shotguns are used more for suicides than for any other purpose. If a person is depressive or suicidal, it could be argued that his or her shotgun should be taken away but I do not know if that is a good idea. However, it is too much to expect gardaí to be able to intervene in all such cases.

I do not want to create a situation whereby whenever a death takes place involving a shotgun, it is deemed to be the fault of a garda, who should have known, intervened or ordered a psychiatric report. Neither should it be considered the fault of the local general practitioner, who should have seen that a young man was going off the rails, under marital stress, drinking too heavily, taking Prozac or whatever and intervened, contacted the Garda Síochána or told the local sergeant about the man's difficulties. Such actions might be taken in a perfect world but we do not live in a perfect world.

Subject to what Mr. Justice Barr finds in his report, we will deal with this issue. I would have liked the Abbeylara report to have been available prior to this amendment being tabled but if the Bill requires further amendment based on that report, I will act on that, if it is reasonable. We do not live in a perfect world but the provisions in the Bill as they stand are reasonable for dealing with reasonable circumstances.

Senator Jim Walsh asked if one could use aptitude questionnaires and maybe one could. Certainly one can ask that somebody produce such information as is required for the person to carry out his or her functions. The information could be a questionnaire about a person's history, previous involvement in threats or disputes and so forth. One could ask whether an applicant has been prosecuted, bound over to keep the peace or whether proceedings were initiated against him or her relating to a threat of violence on another person. One could ask such questions but I do not know whether it would do much good. I do not think one could ask people what a particular picture reminds them of, while showing them images of candlesticks, faces and so forth. I do not think gardaí are going to be able to do character analysis of that kind, based on a piece of paper.

I ask the House to bear in mind that we are referring to 220,000 weapons and a supervisory function with regard to them. It must be the case, with the exception of those weapons that are stolen, sawn off and used by people who have no concern about the law, that less than a tiny fraction of firearms are ever used, or even contemplated to be used, in an improper way. The overwhelming majority of the applicants for firearms certificates are responsible, decent people who have different psychological and psychiatric backgrounds and have never caused a problem for anyone.

I ask Senators to stick with me regarding the text of the Bill as it stands because it is reasonable. I do not think we can ask gardaí to conduct psychiatric evaluations. It is not fair to ask a superintendent, who has a lot to do in his or her district, to satisfy himself or herself as to the psychiatric well-being of people who apply for certificates. It is far better to provide that he or she has discretion and can ask questions. It is better, as is set out in the Bill, that where there may be a problem, a superintendent can ask for a backup medical report or assert the need to consult the applicant's doctor rather than to provide that, in every case, local gardaí must conduct a rigorous psychological or psychiatric test. That would be an unreasonable requirement to place on the Garda Síochána and would consume an enormous amount of time.