Derek McDowell (Labour)

It is not impossible to provide for such a measures under regulations dealing with people in custody. I will examine the issue and take a long hard look at whether samples should be taken under camera surveillance.

What was done with the video was the most offensive thing about the arrest of Saddam Hussein. I do not recall violence being used to take the sample but the humiliation resulting from its being shown afterwards was deeply offensive to some people.

The House should remember that at present the right exists to take fingerprints, palm prints, etc., by force. A totally unco-operative person must be manhandled towards an inkpad and a form by burly gardaí and the prints taken in a rather undignified way. Whether that is a breach of their bodily integrity or dignity as compared with having the equivalent of a cotton bud put into their mouth for a sample to be taken is something on which I have an open mind. I do not see a radical distinction between the two scenarios. If force must be used force must be used.

Most stations now have an interview room containing video material. I do not know whether it would be practical to make a regulation of the kind I have mentioned. There may be cases, which I cannot conceive at the moment, where videotaping would be difficult to carry out. I am in general agreement with a principle stated in the other House that as much of what takes place between gardaí and any person should be as verifiable and recordable as is reasonable, subject to the confidentiality requirements of people who deal with the gardaí. There are reasons, which I explained in the other House but with which I will not detain this House, as to why videotaping is not always a wonderful idea. The baddies use videotaping as a means of controlling what happens in interview rooms.

I am not accepting this amendment but I will examine whether regulations for the treatment of persons in custody can be used to address the issues it raises. It is normal practice for medical practitioners to be present to take samples which are still considered intimate. It is difficult now to get doctors even to take drunk driving samples.