David Norris (Independent)

I move amendment No. 12:

In page 27, paragraph (b), to delete lines 1 to 3.

The two principal provisions in section 14 relate to the reclassification of saliva and other materials as non-intimate samples, thereby allowing the Garda to take these samples without consent. Then there is provision for extending the time during which the samples may be kept from six to 12 months. The Minister has been making an argument for holding these samples indefinitely. One must address this because, among others, it is about people who are arrested but not charged during that period and people who are arrested and may subsequently be found not guilty. The Minister is still suggesting, in line with Professor McConnell, that these samples should be kept anyway. That is dangerous because of the reasons so eloquently outlined by Senator Henry. She argued that due to the sophisticated techniques used to analyse these samples, the issue does not remain confined to the person from whom they are taken and can extend to a range of other aspects of life and relationships. This area needs to be re-examined.

I am aware that the Minister is interested in the idea of a DNA database. In its briefing to Members, the Irish Council for Civil Liberties suggested that one of the reasons it is worried about this Bill is that it would lead to the creation of such a database, about which it and other organisations have serious reservations. These reservations include the possibility that the Garda may decide that they have been given free rein and take DNA samples from everyone, which could be an inefficient use of their time.

Before anyone begins to believe that I am a Luddite and opposed to DNA testing, I must state that I am enthusiastically in favour of it. I was contacted by the Fitzpatrick clan society some time ago and attended one of its meetings. The society decided to try to find the lostMcGillapatrick through DNA testing. I immediately volunteered but was spurned, rejected, despised and scorned because I was related on my mother's side. I immediately volunteered a cousin of mine, they took a lump of spit and sent it off to America. Pages of stuff with X, Y, Z and number 10 came out of it. My cousin, who is a doctor, telephoned me to ask whether I understood it and I replied that I understood it perfectly. He asked what did I understand. I informed him I understood it stated that we are the last descendents of the ancient, royal and noble family, so I am very much in favour of DNA testing. It is a wonderful human advance but, like all these things, it can be dangerous. It was dangerous in those circumstances because a family from America presented themselves the previous year claiming to be the lost kings of Ossory and we all had to bow and retire backwards from their presence. They did not show up the second year and I asked about it. There was a little embarrassment and the people who carried out the DNA testing stated that the family might have originated in eastern Europe. The DNA exploded the family's pretensions rather disastrously.

This amendment deals with the destruction of samples. The Minister's philosophical position on this matter, which is akin to that of Professor McConnell, is that it is a good thing for the State to have this extensive record. Those of us who have hesitations about it feel that there are much broader implications than simply tracking down criminals and that there is a possibility of a Big Brother situation. I draw the Minister's attention to the fact that the people covered by this provision include persons who have not been charged with an offence or who may be subsequently found not guilty. If the Minister decides that a sample from anyone arrested will be retained, it constitutes a penalty against the innocent. I am so shocked that I think I will have to sit down.