Tom Morrissey (Progressive Democrats)

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy de Valera, for this Adjournment matter. I tabled it because no matter how many debates we have here on transport, we never seem to have enough because there are so many varied issues in the transport area.

Bus licensing is an issue the Department has been grappling with for many years. The Department is not ambitious enough about this area of activity. If there was ambition in this area, it would mean that significant numbers of people could travel by public transport at no cost to the Exchequer.

I met with some transport providers recently. One, in particular, who was unemployed five years ago, now employs 35 people. He has made a significant investment. He has mortgaged and remortgaged his house on several occasions against the advice of his accountant and others, and yet he is still in business providing a service. This is the question. Is he being encouraged and assisted by the Department? Regrettably, the answer is "No."

For example, I have read correspondence where a licence was requested. A detailed application was submitted in January last, it was acknowledged in January and there has not been a word since. On that same line 60 miles from Dublin, there is a provincial town whose people cannot be accommodated by the commuter rail system. At 7 o'clock in the morning there is only standing room.

Notwithstanding the considerable investment there will be in the commuter rail line bringing DART as far as Balbriggan, the future plans by Irish Rail can never meet the latent demand in that area, yet the Department is sitting on a licence application for six months. Were it granted, it would have the same impact as the current licences the operator holds. He is carrying 9,000 people at peak times to Dublin city every day during the year, yet it costs the taxpayer and the Government nothing by way of subvention or maintenance.

On that same route, there is a Bus Éireann bus using hired private operators at €400 per trip. Where is the transparency in the use or abuse of taxpayers money by Bus Éireann to put a private operator out of business? This is a misuse of taxpayers' money. There is not proper transparency in the CIE accounts of how its subsidy is being used on the different routes. That is one of the reasons there is not proper ticket integration at present. If there was a fair fare box, we would then know the origin and destination of every customer. This is one of the reasons CIE is lethargic in bringing that forward and co-operating with the system.

The other issue is that bus licences are granted on a yearly basis. Providing a route is a significant investment for an operator. It is a considerable investment in management, employment and capital. The operator gets a licence for one year and must reapply for another year. If the operator is to attempt to develop the route, obviously he or she needs to be given a little longer than 12 months.

This system is in operation for a few years. I asked the Minister previously to consider issuing three-year licences. If an operator went to his bank manager to borrow money for new buses for a route for 12 months, he would be asked where was his guarantee that he would have a licence for the route in two years time.

There are significant issues involved, which amaze me for the simple reason that it costs the taxpayer nothing if these private operators are brought into the system. They certainly give a good service. There are thousands of buses out there. The operators' bus fleets are new, well serviced and well maintained.

Another issue I would raise is how the private operators are treated in the context of the subvention for old age pensioners. I have read correspondence in which the Department states a final offer on how much will be returned to the operator for carrying old age pensioners. The playing pitch is neither level nor fair. The system should be restructured, particularly since it will cost the State nothing.