Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)

I welcome the Minister to the House. It is rare that legislation from the Department of Defence comes before the House; it is not the most prodigious Department in terms of legislation so when it comes we have a particular responsibility to give it a fair hearing.

This and all other legislation on the Defence Forces deals with a group of people whose voice is largely unheard. The Permanent Defence Force has made a great contribution to the security of this State and in our wider international obligations, at EU or UN level. We should record that because Defence Forces personnel follow debates in this and the other House, and listen to Question Time. Privately people speak to us about the importance of recognising the role of the Defence Forces in the international work they undertake on all our behalf. It is important that we do that when Bills of this nature come to the House.

This legislation is needed because of a question mark over the legality of sending Irish troops abroad for business other than international peacekeeping as set out in the 1960 legislation. That issue arose at a recent working group within the Departments of the Taoiseach and Defence which is looking at Ireland's role in future battle groups.

At one level any legal doubt about our ability in Irish law to commit troops to action is serious. I looked at the 1960 and the 1993 Acts and I found nothing in them that would allow one to conclude there was anything illegal in such missions but the Minister wants to be sure beyond doubt that when we commit troops to functions as part of our international obligations, the commitment must be absolutely legal and watertight.

Extending the definition beyond international peacekeeping force is wise and that is the principal purpose of the legislation, to make it clear that there is provision in Irish law for the Government and the Dáil to commit troops to various functions. It is worth saying that many of those functions relate to our participation in Partnership for Peace, which my party wholeheartedly supported, within the EU and the United Nations. It is right to do this today and spend some time on it.

There was a question in the other House about missions established by the UN Security Council as against missions authorised by it. If a mission is established by the UN, then it is responsible for its implementation but a mission authorised by the UN could have another organisation responsible for implementation, albeit in the context of a Security Council resolution. We could return to that tomorrow.

I went to Sarajevo not long after the end of the first war when SFOR troops were committed. We were not involved in the original phase, although we were to participate subsequently. I spoke to an American general who was responsible for leading the troops in Bosnia-Herzegovina. I asked him the most important thing Irish troops could bring to bear in such a situation. He said there were three things — we speak English, have no historical imperial baggage and a huge historical knowledge of peacekeeping all the way back to the 1960s. That stuck with me. Irish troops on peacekeeping missions have built up a body of knowledge the international community appreciates and we should not underestimate this.

The Minister said the necessity for this legislation arose from the advice of the Attorney General to clarify the 1960 and 1993 Acts. It is not the practice of any Government to publish advice from the Attorney General but there might be an argument for it here on the basis that all actions where troops are committed ultimately require a resolution of the Dáil; this involves not just the Government but all Members. It may be sensible to publish the advice on this occasion because I suspect the Minister is telling us the same as what the Attorney General stated in his legal opinion to the Government and the interdepartmental group.

When we passed the Maastricht referendum, there were clear obligations on the Irish people to commit troops for humanitarian aid and disaster relief. It was a specific provision independent of the European currency. The passage of that referendum had a much more important effect than any law that goes through these Houses. The sovereign will of the Irish people determined that we support the Maastricht agreement and there was a sovereign jurisdiction in the passage of that referendum to allow the Government to commit troops independently of the Dáil or anyone else on the basis that the people had supported it.

I welcome the Minister's reference to Kofi Annan's comments. I recall the speech Kofi Annan made at the forum when he spoke about the importance of being able to rapidly deploy troops under a UN mandate to a particular theatre. That is important in the context of the triple lock debate. The Minister will be aware that the Government and my party have fundamentally different views on this issue and we will come back to that tomorrow by way of an amendment. At least it shows there are points of difference between Government and Opposition from time to time. The Minister will be well aware of a position paper my party published in 2003 on the issue of the triple lock. If one is logical in quoting what Kofi Annan said, one cannot possibly commit troops on a rapid reaction basis when one is waiting for a UN Security Council resolution.

I understand the logic of the triple lock is based on the Government deciding, the Dáil deciding and the UN Security Council deciding. As the Minister well knows, in the case of Macedonia, where the UN could not decide because of internal politics between two of its members, we could not commit troops on that occasion in our own backyard in Europe. We were left in a cul de sac because of our position on the triple lock. We need a debate on this. I welcomed the position my party outlined in 2003 but this Bill affords us another opportunity to put my party's position, which is sincerely held and which the vast majority of the Irish people would understand and appreciate in the context of a wider debate on this important issue.

We are sovereign. It is a matter for the Government and the Dáil — one might argue it is a matter for the Dáil and the Seanad — how we commit troops. Internal political disputes, which invariably arise at UN Security Council level, should not determine where or if we commit troops. That is a violation of the sovereignty we hold in this Parliament through the Irish people under the Constitution. The Chinese do not have a right to veto whether the Irish can commit troops in any theatre or cause of international affairs.

I would further point out that my party is not suggesting for a moment that we would commit troops in a scenario where the action would be against the principles and policy of the United Nations, but there is a well known example, the Macedonia one I mentioned earlier, where it happened that we as a sovereign people could not determine our own future because other people in an arena in New York were determining that future for us. That is a fundamental violation of our sovereignty. It is wrong. We need to modernise. The Minister correctly spoke in his speech about the necessity to commit troops rapidly, but how can he possibly do that if the decision is being taken in another forum by other politicians who, for their own local consumption, are making those decisions up as they go along? We will return to the matter tomorrow in respect of an amendment which my party intends to table. It is a fundamental point that we need to debate, not only in this House but throughout the country, because the Irish people need to understand the limitations of our role in the international community due to this ludicrous policy. This policy is dated and out of touch with the new obligations on the European Union and on the world in responding to such crises.

This debate also affords me an opportunity of putting on record our thanks, not only to the members of the Defence Forces who serve overseas, but also to their families. I am aware that as of May this year there are 422 Defence Forces personnel with the United Nations mission in Liberia, 213 Defence Forces personnel with the NATO-led international security presence in Kosovo and 80 personnel with the EU-led operation in Bosnia-Herzegovina. As the Minister stated, the Defence Forces have served in Israel, Syria and Lebanon. Some Members here tonight have, I understand, served in that capacity as well. The Defence Forces have also served in the Republic of Congo and in the Ivory Coast. Ireland's Defence Forces have a solid historical and current commitment to international order and this House should put on the record its thanks to the personnel involved for the security issues which come with that because many of these are difficult missions where people put their lives on the line. I also want to put on record our thanks to their families for allowing them to leave home and family for lengthy periods because that is difficult too.

The EU response to the disintegration of Yugoslavia was the worst time for Europe since the rise of the Third Reich. As Europeans, I am with Lemass more than anyone else on this when he said that if we create it, we have an obligation to defend it. We must learn the lessons of our inability to respond in Yugoslavia and of why, while European leaders were talking and arguing about what needed to be done, we left it to the Americans to do it. A more mature and developed European Union has the capacity to do this and to respond, particularly in our own region of the world, to all kinds of difficulties that emerge from time to time. If we do not do so, we abdicate our responsibility and give in to those who are bully-boys and who do not understand the international norms, notions of peace, democracy and human rights, which we are trying to foster in the world. I look forward to the debate on the Bill tomorrow.