Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)

We have heard a most extraordinary broadside against the role of the Minister for Finance. I remind Senator Hayes that the Cumann na nGael Government of 1922-23 introduced our system of public administration, particularly a system of financial administration that gave a central role to the Department of Finance. One can argue that for the first 30 or 40 years of the State a tight, conservative financial policy was followed that may be criticised. When we reached the 1970s that control loosened to an unacceptable extent. For the last 20 years this country has prospered in a way not seen before and an integral part of this has been a massive improvement in our public finances which has reduced a debt of 125% of the gross national product to approximately 25% to 30% this year. This achievement is matched almost nowhere else. The notion that one would not make certain spending subject to the approval of the Minister for Finance is untenable.

The Taoiseach appoints the Minister for Finance and can, in theory, dismiss him or her. I cannot recall any occasion, in over 80 years of independence, when this has occurred and such an action would send out considerable shock waves unless there were very particular circumstances to justify it.

This Bill does not mean that the Taoiseach is, in any way, subordinate to the Minister for Finance; it relates to the financial sphere. I am something of an expert on the later years of the French absolute monarchy. The king could sign un bond, the equivalent of a cheque or financial order, but it was the controller general of finances who decided if it could be paid. There were occasions when it could not be paid. I do not think this Bill creates any constitutional problems. The Minister for Finance is given a particular job to do and our system of public administration of finances and economics over the past 20 years has triumphantly vindicated itself.

I assure Senator Ryan and Senator Brian Hayes that if Deputy Rabbitte were to become Minister for Finance——