Joe O'Toole (Independent)

I wish to share time with Senator Henry.

I welcome the Minister of State to the House. This is a matter of crucial importance to every community. When debating Ireland's energy needs recently, I suggested to the Minister for Finance that if communities in a clearly defined area were prepared to take complete control and responsibility for all their own waste and energy needs, they should be entitled to a tax break. Waste management is an issue of social as well as Government responsibility and it will only work when both citizens and Government are pulling in the same direction.

We do not know enough about the question of waste management. I know a bit about recycling and renewable energy, but not so much about waste. I live in north Dublin and Fingal County Council has been the most progressive council in dealing with waste. For a number of years, the council has had a system of payment by volume. There is a charge per collection rather than an annual charge. Payment by weight or volume makes much sense and it should be in every single local authority. The polluter pays principle also needs to be applied rigorously.

I support the idea of having a regulator in this area. Reasonably sized waste operators have been going out of business, pushed out by bigger operators who take over the job at an increased rate. There was such a case recently in Limerick city. We are heading towards a monopoly or duopoly situation as some of the operators are getting very big. In such cases, a regulator would be very useful to introduce guidelines. However, Friends of the Earth is right to state that we are not doing enough recycling. Every single local authority should be required to have a green or a brown bin. In the argument about one-off housing, conditions could be imposed on planning permission to include composting and so on. If every house had a composter and a choice of bins, many strides would be made. In his speech, the Minister stated that 80% of the waste in landfill is biodegradable. There is no reason we cannot deal with that.

Collections and bring centres will not work because it is too much effort for most people to take material to a bring centre. However, they will put it outside their gate for collection. The composter does not take biodegradable cooked foods, but people still do that. Some people do not know about composters. We have not emptied our composter in four years and it has never overflowed. When it arrived, I thought it would only last a month yet it is still stacking up years later. There are ways of speeding up composting by heating it or by wrapping it in insulation that breaks down the waste.

I have done my best to read about incinerators. I have listened to all the arguments and I have tried to approach the issue with an open mind, but I do not know where I stand. I read the Friends of the Earth document on incineration and I was disappointed that it only focused on one issue. It dealt with incineration that regenerates electricity, which although a very important issue, is not the general argument about incineration.

However, the case is made that for an incinerator to be effective, there is a certain critical mass of waste which it must use. Therefore, where incinerators have been established, there is an encouragement to bring more waste to it. If that is the case — it has been put forward by Friends of the Earth and others — we should look at it very carefully.

It seems that modern incinerators, provided they are kept to the terms of planning and to the temperature levels required, are safer than any other form of waste disposal. If they are not maintained according to the most stringent regulations, then they can release gas, ash and other waste into the atmosphere that will create dioxins. If that happens, we cannot support them at all.

I do not know how this can be effectively monitored, but it should be. In the Minister of State's own constituency, I read that a chemical plant had exceeded the waste output level on 30 or 40 occasions. The plant was not an incinerator, but it produced chemicals. There was a way to check that, so there must be a way to check incinerators.

Incinerators reduce the amount of waste by about 90%, which is a very positive thing. On the other hand, that leaves 10% that must be disposed of. That 10% has been used in roads, footpaths and infill but I am not sure what damage it does to the environment if it leaks into the surrounding countryside. Can the Minister of State outline the arguments for and against incinerators? I suspect that he is regularly forced to take a line on certain issues and there is nothing wrong with that.

This is an issue about which many of us know little. If we keep hearing the arguments for and against incineration, we will come to our own conclusions. Once people are polarised about this issue, we will not make progress. Technology is improving and it probably makes incineration safer. However, dealing with the residue is an important issue.

I would like to know about the efficiencies that arise from methane production in landfill sites. Is it being extensively carried out or is it being done as a sop? I agree with the point made by Friends of the Earth that selling the idea of incineration on the basis that it produces electricity is not an argument that stands up to close scrutiny. It can be done, but it is highly inefficient. However, if it sorts out the waste problem, it might be worth examining.

We are entitled to light a fire in our back yard on a certain number of days in the year, such as bonfire night. I used to hear that farmers could burn waste two days a year. What does someone do with a large quantity of hedge clippings? If someone cuts down a 15 ft. Leylandii hedge, what does he or she do with the result?

I have heard Senator Dardis make comments similar to these. I too live on the edge of the metropolis, and not a weekend goes by without my seeing a mattress or bed dumped at the edge of some quiet road. That is inexcusable, and I would love to catch those responsible. I would be very happy to report them, since we never find them.

One of the reasons that they do that is that they must pay to bring things to the official dump. People should be allowed to bring outsize items such as parts of beds or other furniture without charge. In some countries, there is a special collection every few months for such things. I am not sure if it is done anywhere in Ireland, but it is certainly the case in parts of France and elsewhere. It might be our bridge to doing something, and I ask that the Minister act accordingly.