Joe O'Toole (Independent)

I welcome the Minister of State to the House and the opportunity to speak on this matter. I have been a supporter of Palestinian self-determination and the establishment of a Palestinian state for many years. I supported the PLO during this period. I also believe in a two-state solution and have long supported the recognition of the state of Israel. I put this argument directly to the former President of the Palestinian Authority, Yasser Arafat, and others.

A two-state arrangement is the only solution. We must live through these issues. Many speakers today argued that we must examine parallels on this island. I disagree with Senator Minihan's argument about the perils of democracy. We accept democracy, which led to the election of Hamas. I regret that it did not condemn the suicide bombing last week in Israel. Over the last four to six years, many Members of this House urged the PLO to condemn the suicide bombers who were killing innocent Israeli people and luring young people with false promises of a future. I remember when Yasser Arafat eventually took the difficult decision to condemn suicide bombing.

I do not doubt that Hamas will eventually be forced to do likewise and the sooner it does so, the better. Events occurring at the moment are typical of what we have witnessed on this island and the Middle East. The relationship between Hamas and the Israeli Government is a rerun of that which existed between it and the PLO 20 years ago. Developments which took place during that period, including the two intifadas, boil down to a basic issue of human and civil rights and the issue of self-determination.

It is incumbent on the West to recognise the flaws in Hamas and the illegality of the construction of the wall and settlements in the occupied territories by the Israeli Government. Having recognised these wrongs, we must park them and examine how we can build on a coincidence of objectives and reach a point where the two states can live side by side in mutual recognition. This must be the objective. It is surely no more difficult than that which took place on this island. The participation by members of the Democratic Unionist Party in a meeting of the British-Irish Interparliamentary Body this week was as unexpected as the difficulties we now witness between Palestine and Israel.

We must condemn actions which are wrong. The Government and Members of this House have established our credibility on these issues. The Minister's speech contains tough language directed at both sides. The speech touches on the fact that Hamas has not responded to messages from the international community and the former president of the Palestinian Authority, Mahmoud Abbas, and goes on to discuss Israeli practices in the occupied territories. This balance and the fact that it is not expressed in very diplomatic language is welcome because now is not a time for walking on eggshells. It is time to put matters on the record. When we do so in an even-handed way, it gives us some credibility in terms of urging the parties involved to move forward together.

I have supported the Palestinian cause for many years but in supporting it, I have argued with Palestinian representatives every step of the way. If I believed what they were doing was wrong, I pointed it out to them. I also argued with my colleagues in the Israeli trade union movement about such matters as the closing of Palestinian universities and the prospect of a Palestinian state composed of scattered pieces of territory with very little prospect of economic viability built into its structure. During Yasser Arafat's last visit to Ireland, I, along with a number of other Senators, met him for dinner and asked him how an independent Palestine would become viable. I informed him that I was not satisfied with the answers I was given and that there was a need to develop Palestine's economic structure.

I remember a conversation with an Israeli trade union colleague in the mid-1970s, not long after the Yom Kippur War, during which he told me that he believed that no matter how bad matters were, the future lay in economic development. He was correct in believing this. He believed that a prosperous Israel and a prosperous Palestine would learn to live together more effectively and quickly than if people were struggling in a subsistence existence. This leads on to the need for economic investment in this area. I agree with Senator Minihan that we must be ready to invest in improving the lot of people in the region and ensuring that there is economic development and that both groups can live together, support each other and move forward together. In the meantime, both groups must recognise that international law, including UN directives, apply to them. We must recognise that, due to the cavalier way in which the United States Government dealt with Iraq in recent years, it is difficult for the West to look po-faced at Israel and insist that it recognise international law and comply with various UN directives.

We must be brave, take the necessary steps and be prepared to say what we believe is wrong. There is no point in calling for Hamas to condemn these issues as we condemn them out of hand. Suicide bombing is unambiguously wrong, can never be right and must always be seen as unacceptable in any set of circumstances. We must also explain our views on Israel's involvement in the occupied territories and how it is equally wrong and unacceptable under international law.

Having said this, what can we do to move matters forward? How can we get closer to the measures envisaged in the Oslo Accords? Can we make them work? How can we convince Hamas? We cannot do so through megaphone diplomacy. The only way to convince Hamas is to engage with it, argue in quiet and silent rooms and say what we are saying today, namely, that in the same way we must accept that democracy produced a Hamas Government, Hamas must recognise the existence of Israel and that the Israeli Government has been democratically elected, irrespective of the state's boundaries. While there may be an argument in this regard, there cannot be an argument about Israel being a sovereign state with a democratically-elected government. We should hold these positions and argue them with Hamas.

I ask that the West have a greater engagement with Hamas at a private level to argue the toss with various people and make individuals in rooms without cameras or from which no reportage comes justify their positions. We should ask people what is the way forward and what is their preferred or second favourite solution. We must establish coincidences of objectives between Israel and Palestine, of which there are some. There is no doubt that people in both jurisdictions have the common objectives to seek to live their lives in peace and do better for the next generation.

I do not know how many times we have discussed this matter over the past 20 years but it is depressing. Will it ever end or be resolved? Now that there are established people with set or polarised positions in both jurisdictions, perhaps it is time they realise they must move. They must commit to either a continuous war or a peaceful process, in which our Government would have a role to play. I have always been proud of this State's position on the Middle East conflict over the past 20 years and through various Governments. On the one hand, Palestine should recognise that Ireland has been prepared to take a stand in its favour before many others were prepared to do so and, on the other, it must listen to us and recognise Israel. There must be a two-state solution that is honest, acceptable under international law and gives people on all sides a chance.