Brendan Ryan (Labour)

I could probably speak for two hours on agriculture and the astonishing case history of this country's inability to think or be led strategically. I was told I was a left-wing extremist of all sorts of manifestations 30 years ago — I am still quite happy to have that appellation hung around my neck — when I and others suggested that fishing and fisheries had been sold out in return for the Common Agricultural Policy and that we were imagining things.

I never got a degree in economics but I was able to see even then something that, for some reason had to do with the possibility of lucrative consultancies, evaded most Irish economists for about 25 years after we joined the EU, namely, that any area of the economy that is based on a guaranteed price for limitless production will inevitably hit a wall. What I did not anticipate was that the wall was 30 years away. I thought it would be less.

It is astonishing the way the comfort blanket of the CAP survived two oil crises, a couple of recessions and the astonishing public revulsion at what it saw as vast amounts of food being wasted. It became an enormous political taboo. If one thinks that changing policy about the Irish language is difficult one should try talking about the possible limitations of the Common Agricultural Policy for 15 years as I did occasionally here and was told I did not understand. I understood very well.

I do not understand the intricacies of farming but I understand the intricacies of trying to run a business while pretending the market does not matter. By contrast with the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, Irish farming organisations appear to wrap a comfort blanket around themselves also.

The beginnings of Thatcherism in Britain galvanised the Irish trade union movement into recognising it needed to adjust its role and way of doing things to ensure it was still part of the equation as Ireland changed. At the same time my understanding of the farming organisations was that they stood like King Canute and told the tide it must stay out and were somewhat surprised when they got wet three or four times. While the Department, ably enough headed by the Minister and her predecessors, would have privately recognised it was an unsustainable position, the public view was that nothing would change. All of a sudden everything changes and people are shattered. When it changes again people are further shattered.

If I was a farmer in Ireland today, which is unlikely, I would be extremely wary of direct payments. There is not a scrap of evidence anywhere in any society in the world where direct payments which are not related to people's work last indefinitely, however generously they are made.

I remember when a former Taoiseach promised the workers in Clondalkin Paper Mills they would be paid their wages indefinitely after the factory closed. I remember some officials in the Minister's Department in the Land Commission being paid salaries for a function that was long gone. They were regarded as scandals.

If I was a farmer I would be very worried if my future was dependent on a cheque in the post based on what I used to do ten years ago. If we are going to behave strategically we have to see those direct payments as an assistance to transition, not as a permanent guarantee. I am not persuaded the matter has been dealt with strategically.

I am glad the Minister made considerable reference to food. I am pleasantly surprised at the scale of food production from micro companies. I was in Harrods in London recently and walked through its magnificent food halls and saw a wonderful display of cheeses from all over the world. There were a significant number of Irish cheeses on display. Without having checked, my recollection is that every one of the Irish cheeses I could see in Harrods was a product of a small if not a micro company. There was not a single product there from any of the big companies that would claim to "dominate" the Irish food market. That is a good showpiece of all the food quality of the world and in it one finds that the only Irish cheeses there are those that people produced in spite of, not because of, the Common Agricultural Policy.

I make no apologies for referring again to a meeting of the Joint Committee on European Affairs, of which I was a member, in or about 1998 when the IFA was in attendance and spoke for 45 minutes on what had to be done for farming. I remember asking the then president of the IFA, who is now a colleague of the Minister, how he could speak for 45 minutes about the future of agriculture and not mention consumers or the marketplace. We had an interesting dialogue. That was the reality. It is astonishing to me as a reasonably numerate, economically-literate individual that in 2006 I am reading that the plan must focus on three key points, namely, competitiveness, innovation and consumer-focused marketing. Thanks be to God we have noticed but it is astonishing that it took 30 years. That I why I want to ask a few questions.

I heard at a World Trade Organisation parliamentary assembly in Geneva in 2002 that the sugar regime was going to change and yet when I came back here literally nobody said anything. I have a question for the Minister. Why is it that Finland is retaining its sugar beet industry? A number of people have asked that question. There must be a reason and I would like to know it. No one I know is aware of the reason.

Why is it that we cannot emulate a country such as Sweden which has decided that in 15 years it will phase out oil dependency and will use biofuel to power its cars? What is the obstacle to us dramatically moving in that direction? Given that we have some of the most fertile land in Europe which people are paid not to use, what is the problem? I think I know the reason. The problem is the Department of Finance has never had the imagination to see where the world might be and does not understand environmental issues. I could speak for a long time on this subject.

There is one question I want to ask the Minister that I ask every Minister. There are multiple thousands of farmers involved in REPS. Will somebody tell me what proportion of agricultural output is produced on REPS farms? Only where there is a REPS can one say that agricultural output is based on the best environmental standards. If that is what we want to achieve, most of our agricultural output ought to be from REPS-based farms. I believe it is not and that it is mostly from a large number of farmers in small scale production in peripheral areas. That is not the same as having a sustainable agricultural industry.