Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)

That is helpful but I was told to say clearly that this refers to the costs to date.

Senator Norris also spoke about roaming telephone charges, and compared the M50 shoot-out to events in Chicago in the 1920s. He said that the cold spell which lasted longer than normal affected elderly people. This could return. Somebody else also said we should have an enhanced fuel allowance.

Senator Leyden wants a debate on section 15 of the Garda Síochána Bill. I fully agree that, although we are all enthusiastic about the principle, we should debate this issue.

It is not enough to hear it shouted at us that the electorate will deal harshly with those who do not want the reserve force. We want it but we want to know the terms, conditions and all the details. It is not enough to present it on a plate — be it a sandwich or otherwise — and say "that is it, take it". I am in favour of the principle of the reserve force but we want to know the details and have the right to hear them. Senator Leyden has done a service by raising the matter and I will find out if the Minister will discuss it and also address the crime problem. He is fond of talking and is good at it. Just because the decision on the reserve force is to be made by the Government does not mean we cannot discuss it. I never heard anything so puerile. We need to discuss it.

Incidentally, the Cathaoirleach in his exalted position would not of course be attending public meetings, but people are certainly asking questions and seeking answers. We look foolish when we do not have any details and people want to know why we do not have them. If the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform attended the House we would get those details.

Senator Terry spoke of crime on our streets, which we take for granted. I find it chilling that people can drive by in cars and fire seven shots on each side, and it is just another statistic. Senator Terry also suggested the Minister for Social and Family Affairs might consider increasing the fuel allowance.

Senator Maurice Hayes asked what steps were being take to safeguard the site of the Battle of the Boyne and supported Senator O'Toole in regard to rewarding good teachers. Senator Henry congratulated Gay Byrne on his appointment. She noted that there are almost 0.5 million drivers on the roads who have not been deemed fit to drive by means of a test. Mr. Byrne said this was one of the issues he wanted to tackle. Senator White noted that Mr. Byrne has tremendous experience, which he has, and called for a debate on the driver testing issue. She also quoted OECD statistics on poverty, and asked for a debate on ageism.

Senator Feighan spoke of the drive-by shootings and the sale of cocaine. He has been one of the consistent voices in the House on drug use. He also objected to the coarse language used on the 6 p.m. radio news item on the Morris tribunal. I heard the programme and I suppose it was relaying what was actually said. Maybe one should just close one's ears but I presume the report was factually correct and was not an enhanced take on events.

Senator Mansergh supported Senator O'Toole and noted that government by diktat is never very successful. Speaking of driver testing, he said that generally speaking, outsourcing of many Government functions is not a good idea.

Senator Quinn said Gay Byrne was an inspired choice for the chairmanship of the road safety authority. He also asked if it were not a legal anomaly that it is illegal to sell cocaine but not to snort it. Senator John Paul Phelan spoke about the driving test backlog and gangland crime, and said the cap on community employment scheme involvement should be removed. Senator Ross called for a debate on road safety and questioned Gay Byrne's appointment, saying that people in such positions should be able to engage with young people. Gay Byrne could engage with anyone — he is that kind of person, which is one of his strong points. I do not agree with Senator Ross that Mr. Byrne's appointment was a gimmick. The Senator also asked for a debate on Aer Lingus.

Senator Cummins asked when the gaming and lotteries Bill will be published. I hope to know tomorrow. Senator Cummins also spoke of private members' card clubs developing into casinos. As he is aware, there is a loophole in the relevant law, and the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform has said he wishes to plug it. Senator Cummins also pointed out that Garda cars are not subject to the NCT. With regard to the Garda car involved in a fatal accident, the question of its roadworthiness is a moot point. There were diverse opinions as to whether the tyre treads on the Garda car were worn.

Senator Hanafin called for a debate on ageism and I agree with him that wisdom comes with age. Senator Lydon called for a debate on ageism and referred to former President Reagan's achievements. The Senator also referred to the wisdom accruing to older Senators.