Joe O'Toole (Independent)

I welcome the opportunity to contribute to the debate, although I am not sure I can add much to what has been said. I have listened to a number of discussions on this issue in recent days and Senator Feeney's contributions were to the point and had an impact, which I will not attempt to match.

I would like to consider the issues in a cold light because the women who suffered have been left behind by the system and we must take responsibility for that. While I can blame Dr. Neary, these women and the people of Ireland depend on public representatives to ensure regulations are in place and protocols, strictures and processes are correct. However, they were not in this instance and that is the most shocking aspect.

This was not only a case of one guy getting it wrong. How did he ever come to be appointed to the Lourdes hospital, given that he did not meet the necessary criteria for the post? I have not read an account of the appointment process but he clearly did not meet the essential criteria, not to mind the desirable criteria. He should never have been employed by the hospital in the first place. He was inexperienced and so on.

I refer to the consultants who took him out to lunch before investigating him and who then came to a conclusion — surprise, surprise — that he had nothing to answer for. It is appalling that this should have been allowed to happen. I do not understand how people brought in to run the rule over the man would do so in this manner by creating a "palsy-walsy" ambience at lunch and conducting an examination afterwards. That should not have happened. No matter what conclusion they reached, one would have had to question the impartiality of the investigation. I do not know whether the investigating consultants are answerable. Has their work been checked?

The third issue that arises relates to records. The minute this issue was highlighted, the security of records should have been paramount. Crimes were committed and, ordinarily, the scene of a crime is preserved. If somebody touched evidence in any other court case, there would be outrage but the records were lying around in unlocked areas to which everybody had access. A protocol should be in place whereby all files should be copied and put away securely. This raises major concerns.

When I considered how this man dealt with the women and, as I listened on radio recently to people speak about what happened, I could not think straight because of the anger I felt welling up inside, given that this was going on for the past 20 years, 15 miles from my house. My first cousin died in the hospital arising from child birth but, while it had nothing with Dr. Neary, it brought back many memories. I cannot understand how these women could have been treated like this and why nobody shouted "Stop" for years.

The question of normality arises. What is the norm? As Senator Glynn said, this practice was the norm for the Drogheda hospital and, therefore, none of the staff knew the difference. The crudeness and insensitivity of this man's language and approach to his patients was appalling. We often hear about the lack of manners on the part of consultants and their overbearing attitude and superiority when dealing with patients, but this man's behaviour brought that to a new level. He conducted internal vaginal examinations while others were in the room, which meant the personal integrity of women was not preserved, their privacy was not respected and their sensitivities were not appreciated. This behaviour on its own was more than enough to tell me all I need to know.

I disagree with the polite interpretation of the horrible phrase attributed to the doctor. When he explained to the women what he had done, he said he took away the cradle but he left the playpen. The use of the word "play" is more crude than some of the benign interpretations put on this previously. It is far more crude than one would expect and has all sorts of unnerving sexual connotations. It is appalling that was said. If it was said in the workplace, people would argue the matter. It is also appalling that there was no communication or support for the women involved, and I will return to that issue.

There is a question as to whether religious philosophies or beliefs had a bearing on events. I believe they did, but I do not know why this man did what he did. Despite having read through the report and tried to come to a conclusion, I cannot. I know what happened and that is enough for me. I do not need to know his motivation. It might make it worse and certainly would not make it any better. I cannot think of any benign philosophical basis on which he might have done this that could make me feel it is not as bad as it looks. It is as bad as it looks.

I wish to give an example from the other side and hope the women involved will not take offence. I do this for the best possible reasons. Not all consultants are like this man. Somebody speaking about the Coombe Hospital said she never met a consultant like him there. I do not like to use family situations as examples, but I will break that rule for once. I was at the hospital when somebody very close to me was having her fifth child, having previously had caesarean sections and various difficulties. However, she had a superb, sensitive, caring and supportive consultant to deliver the child. He came out to me after the birth and said the situation was very bad as there was a serious haemorrhage. He knew me well and knew his patient. This happened at 12.10 a.m. and he went back into the theatre and returned 40 minutes later. When I asked if the situation was any better he said it was not. However, he said he would give her a second pint of blood.

What a contrast that is to what we read in the report and to the quick in and out that was done on those poor women in Drogheda. At that stage, that doctor would have been home eating his dinner. In my situation a third pint of blood was given at 3.30 a.m. At 4 a.m the doctor said to me that he thought he would have to do a hysterectomy. I said that would be like a death. Although this was 20 or 25 years ago and I was much younger than I am now, I knew the impact a hysterectomy would have had, particularly as the patient was under anaesthetic and could not be told what was happening. I asked the doctor if he could make another effort and he agreed. He kept trying until 5.50 a.m. when he came out to me and said he had stopped the flow of blood. He fell into the bed outside the delivery ward and I fell into the one next to him and we slept for three hours. I was never so relieved. What a contrast that doctor was to Dr. Neary.

I think of that occasion every time I hear of a bad consultant and know there is another side and that decent people will always do the job properly. When we compare my experience with the way the women in Drogheda were treated, abused and disregarded, without any regard paid to their future, there is no way we can apologise to them. Dr. Neary's apology is not worth seeking. I do not want to hear it as it is worth nothing and would only give him some dignity. My rule is never to seek an apology. I would only feel an apology was worthwhile if I had come to a good judgment about the person offering it. If it was somebody about whose judgment I did not care, I would not care for his or her apology. That is the case in this situation.

The area of compensation is sensitive. I do not know how we can calculate compensation. I am the vice-chairman of the Personal Injuries Assessment Board where we examine this sort of issue on a regular basis. However, I would not know where to start in terms of the traumatic impact on these women, not just psychological and physical, but in terms of relationships, self confidence and assertiveness as I feel these women have to rebuild their lives. I hope our discussion in the Oireachtas and the media will help them to see that people are trying to understand their trauma and be supportive. If we can offer nothing else, we can offer that.

With regard to compensation, we need to make early assessments and to deliver on them. I know this is not a payment and that "compensation" is probably the wrong word to use. It is an offering we need to make to these women. I would be appalled if along the way we come to a point where we have to ask could we not have done better by them. We should do what we think is right and do it in spades. An approach should then be made to the insurance companies. However, let us not wait.

I want us as the political system or face to make the gesture, to do the business and do what we can financially for these women, late as we are. Afterwards we can fight with the insurance companies or the various groups liable. We should proceed on that basis and not involve the women and mothers who have already suffered so much. We have a clear duty to show our good offices at this time.

There is not much more to add. This has been an appalling chapter. We see mistakes being made from which people suffer and we criticise the people who made the mistakes. We see people get things wrong and others die in accidents. However, the controlled, organised, manipulative and determined way in which these operations were carried out over decades is unmatched. It could not be worse. I heard somebody say that nobody died, but that is not the issue and has nothing to do with it. Some people who might have lived, never did. Some families never got to be the families they intended being.

If we look into the issue and see where people find themselves, we see that this has been an appalling, embarrassing chapter in Irish medical history and political life. We should bow our heads in shame and give our apology to these women.