David Norris (Independent)

I will not withdraw anything. Under Irish law a victim is entitled to secure civil damages against the State. I sincerely hope that the people for whom the Government has been complicit in their kidnap and torture will sue the State and I hope the record of Seanad Éireann and the fact that I and others have pursued this over the past few years will stand as evidence.

Senator Marty mentioned "by act or omission". We have not covered the State's act of omission but I am aware of what the Government is trying to do. It is trying to squirt out obfuscation so it can pretend it did not know. However, ignorance of the law is no defence in law. The Government said it is fully aware of its obligations. It might be but why did it do damn all about them? Where the Secretary General's request is concerned, the Government said the issue arises largely — and this is the fudge — in the context of the transport of any individual while so deprived of his or her liberty. The transport of an individual includes the return leg. That is what the Senators are so afraid of, but can one in conscience think of people being tortured?

The CIA says that if one wants somebody tortured, one takes them to Jordan or Syria and if one wants them killed, one takes them to Egypt. This is on the record from a senior CIA operative. Look at the destinations of those flights. Where were they going?