Fergal Browne (Fine Gael)

It shows how disingenuous the Government was and continues to be. It should not have been included in that speech. Thankfully, however, it came back to haunt the Minister later because the civil servants who were being decentralised used it as a precedent. There was a compensation package involved in the Teagasc case. People had no difficulty with the proposal to move Teagasc headquarters to Carlow and I, as a resident of Carlow, welcomed it. I hope we can build on it. Perhaps the empty business park that is only a few miles away from Teagasc headquarters will attract biotechnology and pharmaceutical industries which can link with the expertise in Teagasc and the two third level colleges in Carlow.

The decentralisation programme started badly and, unfortunately, has got worse. Nobody opposes decentralisation; Fine Gael does not oppose it. The problem, however, is that the programme was far too ambitious. I have spoken to people in Departments which have successfully decentralised sections in the past. They had to go outside their Department for personnel. It is not as simple as telling 200 people in an office in Dublin that they must all move to Wexford. That cannot happen because the 200 people have commitments and families where they are.

The programme also showed how out of touch the Government is with reality. It seemed to think it was the 1950s and that the male in the family was the breadwinner, the female remained at home minding the children and there would be no problem in relocating. It forgot to take account of the fact that there might be two income earners in the family and that the other spouse might have an equally, if not more, successful career than the spouse who is obliged to move. That causes problems.

The programme was badly conceived. The Government did not realise that for 10,000 people to move to the country it would have to go far outside that number to get the 10,000. There was no forward planning and we are now paying the price.

There are two major aspects to decentralisation. The first, which the Government cannot get right, is the physical relocation of personnel. Already, deadlines have been missed. Last year I got information from the Minister as to when the decentralisation to Carlow would take place. Today, Deputy Hogan received information stating that it will be delayed by another year and in reality it could take a further year after that.

While some people might think it was fantastic for the Government to decentralise part of a Department to Carlow, I wish to explain the true story. Representatives of Carlow had a fantastic package and offered the Government a prime site in the middle of the town, for which it would not have been possible to pay money. A group comprising Government and Opposition elected representatives met the Minister for Finance with a package offering fast-tracked planning permission if we were successful. The Government accepted our case as it was very good by comparison with other towns.

While we are glad to have decentralisation to Carlow town, many civil servants moved to the town in anticipation of the Department coming. They are very disappointed that the deadline keeps moving. I appreciate that difficulties might exist in other parts of the country in getting personnel and other issues. However, this is not the case in Carlow town. There has been oversubscription for the section of the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment that is to relocate to Carlow. Will the Minister of State consider temporarily renting premises in Carlow while the permanent building is being built? People in Carlow will be very sceptical and cynical if they do not see developments. We have the required number of civil servants and, unfortunately, we also have an empty business park on the outskirts with an empty advance building, which could cater for the 300 civil servants due to come to Carlow.

Deadlines are being moved out and I appreciate there are delays in a building programme. It is now up to the Minister of State to indicate that he is prepared to move those civil servants in the agreed timeframe and in some cases move them to temporary premises while the permanent building is being built. This may be possible elsewhere, as many advance factories remain idle throughout the country. Carlow has one such advance building and may also have other suitable buildings.

One of the aims of decentralisation is to deliver better public service. I am concerned that because the programme is so ambitious we will need to seek people from outside Departments, staff will need to be retrained and up-skilled, and we will lose much knowledge and expertise in Departments as people who cannot stay in a particular Department might opt out. They might leave the Civil Service and go to the private sector or go to a different Department and the taxpayer will be the ultimate loser. I reiterate the two points that must be addressed, namely, the physical relocation of Departments and agencies and the provision of a better public service. The ham-fisted approach of the Minister regarding a section of the Department of Foreign Affairs relocating to Limerick would not inspire confidence. Some people with specific and unique expertise might now leave the Civil Service following the handling of the decentralisation process.

I ask the Minister of State about the lease arrangements for buildings now occupied by Departments. If a Department decentralises ahead of the expiration of the lease will the taxpayers end up paying for an unoccupied building in Dublin? Could the State be subject to penalties for overstaying in a building in Dublin?

While Fine Gael is in favour of decentralisation, we would not have done it in the way the Government has. We would not have announced it in the Budget Statement, where it did not belong. Unfortunately the Minister of State is now ducking and diving as he is well used to since coming to office. He is running scared on many issues. Deadlines are being missed consistently.

Is the Minister of State prepared to temporarily relocate particular Departments and agencies, in particular the section of the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment to Carlow, to a different building while the permanent building is being built in light of the delay in the building programme?