David Norris (Independent)

I am grateful to my colleague, Senator Henry, for making some of her time available to me. Like her, I am not a deep sea fisher person. One of the benefits of the Seanad is that we can listen to speakers. During one of the first debates to which I listened here, former Senator Tom Fitzgerald from Dingle spoke very effectively and knowledgeably about the issue, and just now, we listened to Senator Daly, who was a Minister in this area. It is always worthwhile listening to people in this House who have this kind of expertise.

I agree with Senator Daly that prison is not a good idea. The reason is that I do not think prison is a good idea, full stop, except for people who need to be contained because of the damage they do to society. I do not see why criminals should get a berth at the expense of taxpayers. I use the word "criminals", even though some of the people operating in the fishing industry do not like the word, but that is what they are. I will put some of the evidence on the record today. I welcome the fact that tax clearance certificates are required. The Minister said in his speech that taxi drivers are required to have them so why should trawlermen not have them also?

I would be very much on the side of the trawlers I saw out in Howth and in Greystones when I lived there. They were family operations and the kind of boats described by Senator Henry. However, I was in Greystones 30 years ago which was a different period. We then had the depredations of the Spanish, but we can no longer blame the Spanish fishermen. As Senator Daly said, it is our own people who are causing the problem.

I would like to draw attention to a letter from the universally respected Dr. TK Whitaker. He wrote to The Irish Times on 9 February as follows:

The Department's quota/tagging system enables it to limit the annual catch of wild salmon in line with scientific advice on conservation requirements — a responsibility it has failed to discharge in each of the past four seasons. Commercial quotas have been appointed well in excess of scientific advice.

I made this point but the Minister brushed it aside. He did not accept it, but it is the truth. Dr. Whitaker closes his letter by saying:

Continued disregard of scientific advice must, however, lead inevitably to such a depletion of stocks that, as has happened when other species of Atlantic fish have been threatened, a total ban on fishing has to be imposed for a period, no compensation being payable.

Further procrastination can only hasten the disappearance of a unique national resource.

This is not a partisan person scoring political points. It is someone who has proved that he has the welfare of the citizens and the country's economy at heart.

I said I would put on record some information about criminality. We had a series of cases within the last year, probably one of the worst in Scotland. As a result, we may be facing fines of up to €40 million, because of greedy people with big trawlers. I recall when some of the huge trawlers were being built. The Celtic Dawn was a good example. Everyone welcomed it because it showed that we were in line with new technology and so on, but it was banned from European Union waters. It then skedaddled off to the coastline of western Africa where these types of boats ruined the fishing trade, and we complain because we have people from these countries whom we describe as economic refugees. We helped to make them economic refugees.

The landings in Scotland were at Peterhead. It is believed that Irish vessels illegally landed 6,000 tonnes of mackerel last year and up to 35,000 tonnes in 2003 and 2004. This is not just individual little trawlers, it is the big boys, which is selfishness, greed and an utter lack of regard for the resources. This did not happen just in Scotland. There was another illegal landing of fish, believed to be worth €500,000, in Rossaveal, County Galway. Gardaí stated that they believe 15 trucks were used to cart away this ill-gotten booty. While they were doing so, two of their number were on the quayside trying to disable the closed circuit television cameras which had been installed by the fishery protection regime to prevent precisely this type of occurrence or, at least, to ensure those who are engaged in this illicit trade were apprehended and charged. The fisheries officers who took part in the follow-up investigations the following day had to get Garda protection in broad daylight. Is this not criminality? How can we say it is anything else? Let us not defend the indefensible. Luckily, the attempts to sabotage the CCTV cameras and destroy the video tapes were unsuccessful. This evidence is with the Garda and I sincerely hope these people are brought to court and treated severely, but I do not think it is in the taxpayers' interest to send them to jail.

It is worth noting that, if the European Union judges that there has been a breach of our quota, we will be penalised. There is a strong possibility that the mackerel quota, for example, which is 48,000 tonnes this year, will be reduced by 40,000. Who will be damaged by this? Again, it is not the pirates but the ordinary decent fisherpeople and trawlermen who will suffer.

The Minister is right to introduce this legislation. In the light of the Browne and Kennedy cases in the Supreme Court, it was inevitable the law must be amended. Criminality is taking place and I urge the Minister to adhere to the severe provisions in this Bill and not to be abashed at using the word "criminality". Such behaviour is criminal, it should be labelled as such and the perpetrators should be shamed. They are damaging our resources and the livelihoods of decent, honest fisherpeople.