David Norris (Independent)

They are only words. However, I have managed this trick in the past but always when there was some degree of accommodation between the two elements. That is a good move but I do not see any realistic possibility of it in this case. Although Senator O'Toole has good relations, by and large, with the Department of Education and Science and the Minister, he is right to be critical because we need to keep the Minister and the Department up to the appropriate standard all the time.

Senator Minihan was kind in explaining the position to those of us who are numerically challenged, among whom I count myself. However, even I can detect that there are anomalies occurring but I accept that since the introduction of the budget, the Minister has managed to achieve an amelioration in the position.

I will give a number of examples. One is a recent survey carried out by the INTO which showed that some of the country's most severely disadvantaged schools, instead of their pupil-teacher ratio improving, have suffered a decrease in the number of teachers because of the implementation of the new weighted system of allocation. I note the Minister is shaking her head, perhaps she has an alternative explanation. As reported it is a worrying development.

According to a report in The Irish Times today, the INTO has called for a freeze on job losses in disadvantaged schools pending the implementation of a new plan to tackle educational disadvantage. It indicated that a number of schools in the north inner city lost the equivalent of eight teacher places because of the implementation of this plan whereas on the south side there was a net gain of one teacher. It seems extraordinary that there should be this drain away from the areas that are most disadvantaged.

The Minister has heard me previously talk with some passion about the breaking the cycle system, about how good it is and that it should be continued all the way through primary, secondary and up to university level. According to the latest reports I have to hand, there is a drain away from the areas of greatest disadvantage because of the rigid application of a particular system. I look forward to the Minister's comments on that.

This position is highlighted and accentuated by the fact that we know from another survey — which was launched by the Minister and therefore I am sure she will comment on it — that 30% of children in poorer areas continue to have serious reading difficulties. This is broadly unchanged since the previous survey of 1999. If these two developments are taken together, in other words, if teachers are being taken away from the areas of greatest disadvantage in Dublin — the north inner city — because of the application the new system when we know that in those areas there is the greatest impact of disadvantage, in particular with regard to literacy skills and so on, the developing situation gives rise to concern. I do not want to carp at the Minister over this because she has done some good work. However, this anomaly needs to be addressed.

To compound matters, I will quote from a third report, from the Education Disadvantage Committee commissioned by the Minister. It states:

It was clear that there is a serious lack of 'joined-up thinking' and 'joined-up action' at both local and national levels in addressing issues of educational disadvantage. The committee has attempted to join up at least some of the 'dots' on the map and to develop a coherent strategy for the future.

These are three areas in which there is criticism of the effect of the current policies, even taking into account that there has been an improvement in the average position. I am always a little suspicious when we have average figures because there may be one group of people who are advantaged to the disadvantage of another. When we get an average figure, we have to look for the anomalies because that is where the shoe pinches.

Another issue that needs to be addressed is the multi-ethnic element in schools. I welcome this and the very healthy attitude not only of the teachers but the pupils, which is an astonishing change since my time in school. Some 170 nationalities are now represented in the State. I want to record an example of that because it is a positive aspect. In Palmerstown community school there was a celebrated case of Olukunle Elukanlo. One of his classmates said:

We have guys from South Africa, Romania, Nigeria, in our class, but we've grown up with them and we don't consider them in those terms. They're mates.

That sounds like a good school to me if children come out of the school system with that attitude. Perhaps they have a lot to teach the adults. I could elaborate on the question of numbers because there are alternative figures which suggest we are still comparatively poor in terms of class sizes compared to the other European countries.

My final point, with which I am sure Senator O'Toole will deal because I will not have time to do so, is the question of special schools on which there is a debate. We need clear, firm policy on that area. I heard Olan McGowan, who is an extremely good broadcaster, speak the other night. He appeared to be against special schools because they put people in a ghetto, so to speak. These are very effective resources, however, if properly managed and we should not tie people into an either-or situation.