Joe O'Toole (Independent)

I also welcome the Minister of State to the House and I look forward to hearing his views. The most significant problem with planning is that nobody understands it. I have been listening here for the past 19 years to people from different local authorities around the country wondering why an application was refused. As long as that remains the case there will be doubt, there will be lack of trust and confidence and it will always be a problem.

The following are simple questions: How, why and on what conditions is a place designated a special area of conservation? How does one come to that conclusion? Who decides? What are the rules? What are the conditions? Perhaps there are rules and conditions. However, I do not know what they are and I do not know anybody else who knows them. It should surely be something that could be applied to an area about which there is no further doubt.

How can An Bord Pleanála overturn a local authority planning decision if they are both working to the same national objectives? It should not happen. It turns logic on its head, unless somebody made a mistake. It reminds me of the health boards, where the Government created 11 independent republics all of which had their own rules and regulations. The Minister of State knew about that better than most. In many cases there was no uniformity of approach. It seems that county development plans should fit into a national plan of some description. In other words, there should be national guidelines which would then be implemented with plenty of local discretion as to how it would be done. At least then all concerned would see the direction in which it was going.

I speak from a disinterested point of view in that, unlike my colleagues, I do not deal with planning issues. Having driven around the country, I have asked planners why they insist on small windows in every house in rural Ireland. It is a simple question. Why is it that in many counties one cannot get planning permission for a house with large windows? One planner told me it was because of vernacular architecture. There is no vernacular architecture in this country. The only reason there are small windows in Irish houses is because there was once a tax on windows and if the house looked too attractive, the tenant was thrown out. All we are doing is continuing an age of repression.

I asked planners why they allow white houses in the middle of the countryside and they said they do so because white-washed houses are the vernacular. White-washed houses are in the Irish countryside because white wash was all we could afford at one time. It is the most incorrect colour to put in the countryside. Nothing jumps out of the countryside as much as a white house. They should not be allowed.

The problem is that nobody is asking the questions or demanding explanations because we are not allowed to do so. If one starts getting edgy about these matters one is suddenly asked if one is interfering with the planning process and trying to bring political influence to bear. It is time we did exactly that. I would like to know that there was an understandable basis to decisions by An Bord Pleanála. I would also like to know that at least the Minister of State was happy that somebody in his Department looking at these matters would state that even though perhaps the Department did not like the decision, it could understand how it occurred, it fits into the general plan and we must live with that.

A development charge must be a charge for something. I am completely in favour of the idea of such charges but I am not in favour of a rip-off. If somebody is paying a development charge we should all be fully aware of what he or she is getting in return. It should not be a case of one size fits all or of billing all those who seek planning permission. There must be something given in return. That is not much to ask and it is something we should look at.

I have previously asked a simple question, namely, why are hollow-block houses still being allowed in Dublin city? Everybody knows that this goes completely against the spirit of the recent European insulation directive. The directive does not apply in Ireland for another 18 months. I would like an explanation for that. Is it because it would create hardship for the building industry? The real impact of this delay falls on youngsters who are buying houses over the next 18 months and who will probably find themselves outside the remit of the planning regulations which will apply to everybody afterwards. When the houses in question are sold or disposed of in five, six or seven years' time we will see the error of our ways.

Since 1998 we have been aware of what would happen in terms of insulation guidelines. Recently I raised this with the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Roche, who told me I had nothing to worry about, but that is not the case. Almost 250,000 hollow-block houses have been built speculatively in Dublin since 1998 and this should not have happened.

This does not happen outside of Dublin. People are more sensible in the country. Why is it being allowed in one place and not in the other? Is it because HomeBond is a self-regulated system, owned by the building and construction industry, which does not have the interests of the consumer or the State at heart?

The Minister at one stage told me he had information on the level of insulation and heat loss in this country, and that we compare favourably with the best in Europe. He promised the relevant data to me but I did not receive it. In fairness, it slipped his mind. He gave a commitment, maybe not in the House but afterwards. Whereas the rest of Europe has a particular method of measuring insulation standards, I want to know why have we invented a brand new Irish solution to an Irish problem by developing something which I understand is called "heat loss through the roof", which is a different issue altogether. I seek reassurance in what we are doing in that regard.

Other areas of concern include the attitude of An Bord Pleanála to a national plan, the relationship between local authority development plans with the national plan, the way in which these matters interact and how we can gain a greater understanding of what is happening. As well as looking at insulation factors, we should also look at the question of energy, not just in terms of insulation but in the wider area to encourage people to develop new forms of energy. For example, is it acceptable to object and get rid of a proposal for a wind farm on the basis that it might upset the view of city dwellers when we go for a drive in the country? On the plus side, wind energy is silent and non-invasive but it occasionally spoils the view of the lovely landscape. Is it not worthwhile in order to achieve the gains? Is it not time we said this? Is it not time that people brought some moderation to the issue?

I want there to be a debate on the issue of planning instead of listening on the one hand to zealots, who say we cannot build a house anywhere and, on the other hand, entrepreneurs, who want to build a house everywhere. The voice of ordinary people should intercede and moderate this debate, to make a decision and hold to it. Otherwise, we are on the road to nowhere.

An Bord Pleanála should take the educational aspect of development on board when making decisions. It recently objected to an eco-friendly and environmentally sympathetic proposal for a development around Lough Key. I know every yard of the shoreline around Lough Key very well and it needs some development. There have always been a few big houses there but surely it is possible to develop it further.

Only when large developments are put in place can people be educated about what to look for and protect in an area. That was one reason why I supported the Burren interpretative centre which unfortunately was ruled out. I love the Burren and have walked its hills regularly but do not know enough about it. Every time I go there, however, I see well-meaning people damaging the area because they know no better. There is nobody to tell them about it.

I do not play golf but I cannot see how the development of a golf course poses a significant environmental threat unless it impacts on something fragile in the environment or an archaeological site which can be dealt with. I do not understand how there can ever be an objection to a marina which must be the most environmentally sympathetic type of development imaginable because it encourages people to love the environment.

We do not need an empty west of Ireland, or to hear people say we must not develop rural Ireland thereby depriving people in rural areas of realising their potential, so that those of us who live on the east coast can go back down and enjoy it all the better because there is nothing there. That is the way we are going. We need balance and moderation in planning. This discussion is worthwhile. I could speak for another hour on this topic and not say all I want to say.

We have argued here about An Taisce. Much of what An Taisce has done in recent years has irritated me. While it should exist as an important part of a democracy it fails to win the trust and confidence of ordinary people as do the planning authorities, An Bord Pleanála and development proposals. We have much work to educate ourselves and other people as to what we are trying to do in the planning area.