Feargal Quinn (Independent)

I thank Senator Norris for giving me time to speak in this debate. We must make a clear distinction. It is one matter to build a motorway and announce well ahead of time that it will be tolled. It is understandable and I have no objection to it. However, it is a problem to build a motorway, have people build houses and come to live in the area and then to spring on them that the system will change and they will face different costs. I believe this is why people are up in arms over the proposal that has now been made.

There are two schools of thought as to whether we should have tolls. One states that the taxpayer, as we did for many years, should pay from a central purse for the cost of roads. The other states that, as with the polluter pays principle, those who use it should pay. I tend towards the second opinion. I believe it is right to have tolls. In my experience it is possible to change behaviour on the basis that people must pay, of which I am in favour. However, I have great reservations about the lack of imagination among those involved. One relates to the pricing, to which I will return, and the other is the collection. The Minister is right: with modern technology it is outrageous to think about the old-fashioned way in which we still collect tolls. I have seen the systems in operation in Singapore and other parts of the world and the Minister has spoken about them here. We must move in that direction as it does not make sense to do otherwise.

However, much greater lack of imagination applies to pricing. In almost every business of which I am aware, more frequent users who are better customers pay a lower charge and the occasional users who are poor customers pay a higher price. The Fine Gael motion refers to the journey from Dublin to Galway. Whatever about that journey, what is important is the person who uses the M50, 40 times a month getting to and from work. This is a much more important element and such motorists should pay a much lower rate than those people who only use the road occasionally coming up to watch Galway play in Croke Park, which is probably very seldom nowadays. Those taking shorter journeys should pay a higher price than those taking longer journeys. This would mean that a driver going the whole way from Dublin to Galway would pay a lower rate — although not necessarily a lower toll — than a driver only going part of the way. On the Continent and elsewhere such a system applies.

Heavy goods vehicles are price sensitive and I still see large trucks, some driver-owned and some owned by the larger companies, which avoid the expense of toll roads in order to travel on roads not built for them and through villages and towns not built for them. This has many implications. It is a much more expensive way to travel. It is also much more dangerous and is damaging to the roads.

The Minister should consider banning or providing incentives to prevent heavy goods vehicles from using those roads that are not suitable for them when a toll road is available to them. This could be done either by applying a ban or by pricing in a manner that makes it much more acceptable for them to use toll roads. The reasons do not just relate to safety and damage to the roads. They include the cost to the economy as a whole. It costs far more to use lower grade roads to transport goods.

I will leave those thoughts with the Minister. The issue needs careful consideration. I am not proposing the answer. I do not know whether heavy goods vehicles should be banned or whether they should be encouraged by pricing to ensure they use the toll roads and main roads built for them and not other roads that were not built for them.