Joe O'Toole (Independent)

In terms of groceries, there are contingent laws that accompany that basic one. For example, if a retailer puts up the price of cakes, he or she will increase the sales of bread because people buy cake with their marginal, left-over income. If they can no longer afford cake, they will buy more bread. I could add much more to a general discussion on the groceries business if so required.

Politicians must bear some responsibility with regard to planning. We have planned the expansion of towns without putting in the small shops that Senator Coghlan is trying to protect. I can see the matter from his point of view but we must examine the developments approved by local authorities and ask where are the centres. My own local authority, Fingal County Council, which is the subject of tribunals related to planning, is one of the best in the country. It produces villages and town centres and tries to make new developments work. There are small shops in such developments. A place like Applewood, for example, on the edge of Swords, has the small shops that Senator Coghlan talked about even though it is less than five minutes' drive from Superquinn, Dunnes Stores and another large supermarket. The village centre is thriving because it provides a service to which people can walk. Senator Dardis is correct in arguing that we tend to get into our cars to do almost everything now because we must. However, we are still willing to walk down the road to a local shop and pay more for goods than we would by shopping in Tesco, Aldi or Lidl, 15 minutes drive away.

I have no trust in the larger players. Even though I have no problem with the legislation and believe the order had to be removed, I hope nobody believes that we will get money back from the big operators. The large multiples are closing down bookshops by making the best-sellers available at lower prices on their shelves. They are closing down music shops by stocking CDs on their shelves. Senator Coghlan is correct to say they are ruthless and in that regard.

These multiples are closing down bookshops and music shops by having bestsellers and CDs on their shelves. Senator Coghlan is correct to say they are ruthless people. I rarely disagree with him but I disagree with the argument that keeping the groceries order would stop that happening. I agree with the Minister that it would not. Businesses must find different ways to prosper, perhaps by cultivating customer loyalty by providing enhanced levels of service.

How might we have made it work? If I read details of Tesco's annual accounts in the business pages I cannot, no matter how hard I try, find out how much of its profits were generated in the Republic of Ireland. They will not tell me. Does the Minister know how much it is? No. Despite all the consultations and the information his Department has, it does not know the profits made by Tesco or any other major supermarket in Ireland. The people who argue the groceries order should be abolished because it will be good for competition refuse to tell us what their profit levels are.