Don Lydon (Fianna Fail)

The motion condemns the use of chemical agents, such as white phosphorus, MK77, by US forces and expresses revulsion at the discovery of 170 persons who were victims of torture in the basement of the Iraqi Interior Ministry building. I do not know whether there is a connection between the two.

We have seen fit to table a very long amendment to this motion. There is probably an esoteric political reason for this that escapes me as the motion is clear and apposite. It is not US-bashing, rather an important motion. It arose at yesterday's meeting of the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs. Members of Fine Gael, Fianna Fáil, the Labour Party and the Independents were there and no one had any difficulty with it, nor do I. I am very fond of the United States of America as it is a wonderful country. I even like its President, Mr. George W. Bush, although some people do not. This does not mean that I cannot criticise that country at any stage. I do not agree with everything America or President Bush do.

If I have a good friend and he is guilty of a moral transgression, I surely have the right to remonstrate with him and still retain his friendship. Otherwise, he is not worth having as a friend in the first place. America's case is the same. It is a wonderful country but, in recent times, human rights have been overridden. There is no other way of putting it. US forces have used chemical weapons against civilians, which is appalling. It is a serious issue and I congratulate Senator Norris, his colleagues and supporters for moving this motion. One can pass and agree a motion such as this but does not need to disagree with America as a country, people or anything else. When we see wrong, we must stand up and say so, which is what the Senators are doing tonight. I cannot speak for Senator Norris but I believe this is what he is saying. When he speaks he is generally sincere and I believe this is a sincere attempt to criticise something being done by what in many ways is a great country as there are, or were, great freedoms there. It saddens me that we must make this criticism.

Senator Henry mentioned Guantanamo Bay. The United Nations inspectorate will not be allowed to interview prisoners there on a one-to-one basis. We have spoken about the bay before. It is an appalling place. Can we imagine being taken from the wilds of Afghanistan, put in orange suits in our bare feet with something in our ears, mouths and eyes, placed on our hunkers and kept there? In my book, this is torture. I cannot think of any other word for it.

I can appreciate the American point of view. Never before in the history of America did people fly planes into buildings and kill 3,000 people in one go. The US will not relent in its pursuit of terrorism, which I applaud. I also applaud the toppling of Saddam Hussein. It could have been possible to do so in a different way but the war was started and is continuing. It horrifies me that soldiers will be blamed for incidents such as this but they generally only do what they are ordered or permitted to do.