Joe O'Toole (Independent)

At the very least I am confused and at another level I am deeply suspicious. I recall when former Taoiseach Albert Reynolds came back from Edinburgh with the famous €8 billion in EU funding in the early 1990s. We all cheered and believed it was great — it was. Some years later I looked at where that €8 billion went. More than €6 billion, in one form or another, went through one Irish company — the Minister knows the company, Cement Roadstone Holdings — either through roads, bridges, houses and so forth. I am not saying these things were not needed but this single company, which has also been mentioned on a number of occasions in Dublin Castle over the years, appears on the radar too often for my liking.

In 1998, we became aware that the insulation requirements in Europe would move in a certain direction. We knew what would be required of us and people took the relevant steps in certain areas. However, steps were not taken in every area. From 1998 until the European directive finally emerged in 2002 or 2003 we continued to build houses in the old way. In that period almost half a million homes were built in the Dublin area and probably 90% of them were built with hollow blocks. I would be glad to be found wrong about this but it is still happening.

The Senators present, with the exception of Senator Brady, will be appalled at that but it only happens in the Dublin area. The reason is that HomeBond has a huge influence in this and outside the Dublin area, houses have been built with cavity walls for many years. In fact, I did not know the cavity block was still in use until I saw the recent pictures of Dublin builders in South Africa building with cavity blocks. There is a good reason for using them there.

What is wrong with cavity block? There are two or three things wrong. The first and most engaging fault is that it is close to impossible, if not impossible, to retrofit insulation as cheaply as in cavity walls. With cavity walls, one simply fills the cavity with insulation. That cannot be done with cavity block because the blocks are not in line. They cannot be in line or the structure would fall down. The only way to bring cavity block to the required level of insulation is by taking everything off the wall, scraping it back and installing an insulation bond.

The Minister and Members are aware that only a few weeks ago the OECD issued a report which stated that Irish housing is 15% over-priced. I do not know if that is right or wrong but at some stage it will be over-priced. Even if it is not over-priced what I say next is of great importance. From next year every house in Europe, which includes Ireland, that is offered for sale will have to carry a certificate of insulation. The 80% or 90% of houses built for speculative purposes in the Dublin area for the last ten years will now, therefore, carry a low level of insulation certification. That means when somebody decides to buy a house and two houses on a road are for sale, one with a certificate of insulation at an appropriate level and the other with a lower level of insulation, it is clear which one will be bought.

The people who were unfortunate enough to buy the cavity block houses over the last ten years will take the hit if there is a 15% drop in the market. There is no doubt about that. We talk about the property ladder but this could be like snakes and ladders. Just when somebody thinks they are up on the ladder, they could go sliding to the bottom again when they try to put their house on the market.

The Minister has only been in office for a year and I do not know enough about this subject but I know the Minister well, having served with him in different places, so I will take his word for it when he tells me that he has investigated this matter. As bad as that is however, it now appears, and I hope I am wrong, that not only is this directive coming into operation next January but Ireland, in its wisdom, has decided to give an exemption period of the following two years to the Irish construction industry. It will be able to continue doing this for another two years. That is appalling and there is no reason for it.

The Minister thinks logically about these matters and I do not believe his views would differ greatly from my own. This is something we have been aware of since 1998. This building method will have an impact on the people who buy houses and on energy and insulation. What are the reasons for giving a further exemption period when we are already years behind our European colleagues in this regard? The issue of insulation has different importance in different countries but I am anxious to hear a response to the points I have made.

The Minister shook his head when I referred to cavity block and the amount of cavity block building taking place only in the Dublin area. It is happening because HomeBond is prepared to accept it in the Dublin area but not anywhere else. Can somebody explain that? Somebody who is building a house outside the Dublin area will not get the HomeBond certificate if the house is built with cavity block. There is no sense in that.

Does self regulation work? It does if there is an oversight body. The oversight body must be either in the Minister's Department or it must be established by the Minister. I am very worried about this because we are creating a serious problem. If some of what I have said is wrong, because I am not an expert in this area, it is only partially wrong. I believe my comments are correct. I believe I have outlined the sequence correctly and I am forecasting a difficulty for the future. Nobody appears to be making any reference to it. I have been trying to come to grips with it because I do not understand it. I do not expect the Minister to be able to reply on this immediately but perhaps somebody in the Department could respond. I do not want a justification for where we are but to know why there is a different standard in Dublin, what difficulties there will be in the future and how the certificate of insulation will work.

Whereas there is a European system for the measurement of insulation, which is simply the insulation qualities and so forth, Ireland is producing a unique Irish solution to an Irish problem. We are measuring it on the basis of heat escape through the roof or easy heat escape as opposed to heat insulation. If that is the case, it is not right. Why is it so? I trust the Minister to get to grips with this and to ensure we are not being led up the garden path on this issue. I have raised a number of issues that must be examined closely.

The Minister will be aware that the British Government's chief scientific adviser during the week proposed to the Prime Minister that the government get involved in nuclear energy. The reason for that is Kyoto and energy conservation. I have discussed this with the Minister, perhaps over a pint or in the wrong place, but I will clarify it now. It relates to the energy issue. Senator Kitt spoke about water provision in various areas. Over the last 50 years or longer, people in Ireland have come together to establish water co-operatives to provide water. There have been difficulties with these schemes but they still exist.

I wish to make a suggestion that is a little radical but doable. It is something that has taken place in other countries. I said in the House last year that if any community were to state that it was prepared to look after all its energy needs, through a wind farm or whatever, and its waste, without linking to a national sewerage system, it should get a tax break for doing that. I did not say anything further but I have examined this matter in the meantime, particularly on a small scale. I am also considering the issue of agriculture at present. I cannot see why agricultural communities would not be in a position to involve themselves in such ventures. They would have replacement crops and work within agriculture. They would save energy, bring us into line with our requirements under the Kyoto Protocol and do us all a big favour also. They could build a five, ten or 100 KW wind generator, one small enough to be hooked up to the grid without the need for a substation. I do not know the exact size required — it could even be a 50 KW generator — but the electricity generated could be shared among themselves and they could save on their bills.

If people in what used to be part of our country until we changed the Constitution a few years ago — I refer here to the northern part — erect even a 1 KW wind generator on their house and the electricity generated goes back into the grid, they get only a tiny amount in clawback at the end of each year, although it is the principle that is important. Why can every new house being built not have a wind generator on the chimney and a solar panel on the roof? The solar panel would heat the water to about 30 or 40 degrees. How much energy would that save? In terms of the hollow block and all that goes into it — and I would like to get into the debate on the benefits of concrete and wood build — and having regard to our requirements under Kyoto, which are being decided on by the building industry, it is frightening.