Shane Ross (Independent)

Senator Ó Murchú is correct in saying the debate in this House has been very responsible. It has been reflective and has looked at the prospects of the future as much as the horrors of the past. It is important that we should be unanimous, and we are, in our utter condemnation of what has happened. There are no words for the type of activities involved, and I agree with Senator Bannon regarding what awful reading the Ferns Report made. There are no words to suitably express condemnation for the sort of activities which took place in the diocese of Ferns and elsewhere.

I do not believe that politicians should compete in the sort of condemnations which come easily to everyone's lips and which are heartfelt by all in both Houses. I am not sure what anyone can add to the words said initially in response to the Ferns Report, but to say that what happened was utterly horrific, stunningly unacceptable and something which we pray will never happen again.

We should ask many questions about those activities, particularly those within the church, about its culture of secrecy which clearly existed, and about the fact that some of the activities going on in the institutions were covered up for so long, which makes it difficult not to point a finger at the institutions. I do not know how widespread was the corruption, if it was everywhere or reasonably isolated. No doubt we will find out in time. It also makes it difficult not to point a finger at the church and say it is imbued with a rotten culture of self-protection, resulting in young people having to suffer and having been made to suffer.

One must ask if the church's omni-powerful position for a long time was abused, and if its power to instil terror into its own ranks and into other people involved some sort of omerta which ensured that much of the activity spoken of was covered up. I do not wish to go into that now in any more detail because this issue will run in the public arena for a long time to come. We will find out a lot more about it in the weeks, months and years to come.

I do not believe these awful events should provide a platform for people to launch wholesale attacks on the Roman Catholic Church or to paint it as all bad. There has been a tendency in the media and among some politicians and many prominent individuals to use horrific incidents and events of this kind to paint the church as an institution for evil of some sort. It is not. I do not believe that for one moment and I say that as a member of the Church of Ireland.

However, I have detected over many years, as each atrocity unveiled itself, a certain level of glee among certain sections of key and powerful places within Irish society and an effort to use these atrocities for the purpose not just of reducing the power of the church, which would be good, but to take revenge on it for some particularly awful things which it may have done in the past. Many in this country, including some in powerful positions, have good reason for antagonism and for believing that the church has been a reactionary and retrogressive force in Ireland. However, advantage has been taken of the great wrongs we have seen in the Ferns Report and elsewhere to vilify good people and positive parts of the institution.

I have been in this House for long enough to believe that the anti-liberal stance of the Catholic Church was wrong. It was unhelpful in the debates on divorce held here in the 1980s, reactionary in its attitude to gay people, antediluvian in its opinions on birth control and it interfered unjustifiably with the political process. However, those among us who believed it to be wrong have to remember that its views and positions were, in the main, sincerely held.

I have deep respect for the people and priests who made enormous self-sacrifices in their personal lives in order to respond to a vocation. Although celibacy was not always practised and I do not regard as serious any breaches of the law in this regard, this lifestyle represented a great sacrifice. Those who ridicule the vows of celibacy and the actions of priests in some instances should bear in mind that they are doing something they believe in and cannot be accused of opportunism in making their sacrifices. Genuinely held views in other areas should also be respected.

How do we reconcile the adulation which greeted the arrival in Ireland of Pope John Paul II and the sorrow that followed his death with the criticism that we make of the church in the light of the Ferns Report? These two matters can only be reconciled by recognising that there was an appalling lapse in practices and that an evil element existed.

However, there is also a church which does a huge amount of good and is led by people who may be old-fashioned but have good intentions. They do not intend harm on anybody and act according to their consciences. They may be misguided but at least they have consciences and do not always make decisions which are totally guided by self-interest. We should bear that in mind in this House because politicians tend to protect their own patches. While there is nothing wrong with that, it should be recognised that there are people who do not always act likewise. One has only to look at religious orders to understand that they do not necessarily act in their own interests. It would be difficult for most of us to live up to that.

Where lapses occurred, they tended to be high profile. I note the examples of Eamon Casey and Michael Cleary, both of whose sins appear to have been of the flesh and involved small beer, as far as I can see. However, the hue and cry that greeted the philandering by these men was absurd. The only reason for it was that many who bore grudges against the church exulted in the personal difficulties of these people. The discomfort caused to them was unfair and disproportionate.

The larger issue, which Senator Ó Murchú and others have addressed, is the separation of church and State. We have come a long way down that road although we have not gone the whole way, as was recently noted by prominent members of the other House. Ireland has recognised that we cannot continue to be umbilically attached to the Catholic Church or All Hallows. The church continues to have an important role to play because of the influence it exerts but, as Senator Ó Murchú pointed out, State law must take precedence in any conflict with Canon Law. No opportunities should exist for conflict between church and State law. There should be one law and code but, if two exist, one should be supreme.

The danger in terms of current events in Ireland is that the pendulum has swung so far to the other side that the church, some of whose members have done wrong, is losing influence for good as well as evil. The evil it has done made us lose sight of its good. The controversy which has blown up over education clouds the fact that all churches have done a lot to educate people in this country. The Church of Ireland, the Catholic Church and the Islamic religion have done significant work in the areas of health and education. This work saved the State effort and money, for which it should give thanks. While the nature of their beliefs has given rise to controversies with regard to hospitals, we should give credit to the churches for their positive influence on health.

I am sorry for those who have put a great deal of faith in the Roman Catholic Church, people whose lives and communities have revolved around the church. The Roman Catholic Church has done much good for communities in Ireland but people are disillusioned by the appalling actions of some of its members. I hope we can move forward to encourage them to rebuild this church and not use this report, and reports to come, as a platform for a generalised attack on an institution which, to a large extent, has been an institution for good, much of which has been forgotten.