Joe O'Toole (Independent)

I welcome the Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children, Deputy Brian Lenihan, to the House and I join Senator Lydon in congratulating him on his contribution to the debate last week. It was important, timely and very measured. The Ferns Report is something on which we can build. I have rarely found myself in agreement with Senator Lydon on issues relating to the church and problems within the church, but in the contribution to this debate he raised many issues which are important to me. I am not a student of the Bible, but I am aware of St. Paul's letter to Timothy in which he said many negative things which we rightly do not accept in this day and age. For example, he said that a woman should be subject to her husband. He also said something with which I agree - that priests should be married because if they cannot look after a family and a home, they cannot be trusted with a church. We should return to that position.

I agree with Senator Lydon that much of what happened in Ferns and is happening in other places relates to sexual repression and immaturity. It is hugely important that we distinguish between child sexual abuse and paedophilia. We need to consider where that brings us. When a young person is abused, that is abuse. That child is always abused and is always a victim. As Senator Lydon said, physical abuse and mental torture will always accompany the sexual abuse or mistreatment that takes place. Every paedophile who is active is a child sexual abuser, but not every child sexual abuser is a paedophile. In many cases, child sexual abuse stems from sexual repression and immaturity and a lack of sexual development.

Like Senator Lydon, I do not ask the church to listen to me. It will not listen to me because it has never done so. I am offering my view of what should happen. Decent, good and honourable priests should be allowed to take wives if that is what they wish to do. The clergy should grow up and recognise that there is nothing wrong with being a homosexual and being a practising homosexual priest. If married priests were recognised and gay priests were accepted, we would have identified and focussed the extent of the problem in this regard.

I would like to mention one respect in which I differ from Senator Lydon, who gave a definition of paedophilia in the course of his contribution. I am sure he will agree with me in this regard if he thinks about it. I believe that many of those involved in child sexual abuse, who should have been married or practising homosexuals, may not have been sexually mature. I have dealt with paedophiles in another role, as the House is aware. I have always found them to be organised, predatory and able to groom their victims over a number of years. They are able to get under, or take advantage of, the supposedly failsafe ring of responsibility that surrounds people in such positions. I differentiate between paedophiles and other child sexual abusers. That is an issue. I ask that we examine the issues I have raised so that priests are able to lead normal lives.

I remind Senator Lydon that I know some of those who have suffered under the church's rules. When a very good friend of mine, Fr. Kevin Hegarty, was editor of a clerical magazine called Intercom in 1989, he tried to start a debate on clerical sexual abuse in that publication. What did he get for his troubles? He was sacked by Bishop Comiskey. Fr. Hegarty, who is a man of extraordinary intellectual ability, now finds himself unable to contribute widely, although he contributes very well as a curate in a small parish at the most western end of the Mullet Peninsula, where he is dearly loved by his flock. He could be making a much greater contribution, however.

I am also aware of the case of a man who was a dean in Maynooth. I do not doubt that he could be a bishop or an archbishop by now, leading the church into greener pastures, but instead he finds himself without a career, trying to reinstate his professional reputation. Like many decent priests and clerics throughout the country, such people have lost out. When I meet them, they are deeply ashamed and embarrassed about what is going on at present.

I would like to mention the attempts which have been made by Bishop Willie Walsh over the past three weeks to try to put across the other side of the argument on the issue of celibacy. Senator Lydon made the important point that it would be useful to define the term "celibacy". To be celibate is to be unmarried. There is no problem if celibacy is a choice for people, but problems can be created if celibacy is a requirement and a compulsion. That is the platform on which we encounter difficulties.

I am interested in the response of the upper echelons of the Roman Catholic Church to the most damning report that has been produced, in terms of detail, about any diocese in the world. Questions have been asked and eyebrows have been raised about a number of dioceses in the United States. Given that the Ferns Report is the worst report on a Catholic diocese about the issue of child sexual abuse that we have ever seen, it is unacceptable that there has been absolute silence from Rome. As the leader of the Irish diplomatic corps in the Vatican, the Irish Papal Nuncio should recognise that he has a role to play in this regard. We need to hear from him on this matter.

In his previous existence as head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the Pope issued an edict of omerta from Rome in the 1970s or 1980s. The edict stated that all allegations of child sexual abuse against priests should be dealt with and investigated confidentially. That was bad enough, but the edict went on to say that anyone who broke the code of confidentiality — I do not refer to confessional confidentiality but to confidentiality of disclosure — did so under pain of excommunication. That threat was put in place to ensure that whistleblowers or people who wanted to take certain matters further would not do so. Senator Lydon mentioned that he has met such people.

Over the past 20 years, I have demanded on many occasions that disclosure and mandatory reporting be deemed to be essential aspects of the roles of people who deal with children, but I have never received the support of Governments of all shades on this issue. We need to reconsider this aspect of the matter, just as we need to insist that the Stay Safe programme be taught in every school in Ireland. I have said previously in this House that the two women who developed the Stay Safe programme were initially unable to get support from anyone. The INTO finally made the necessary funds available to the women to conduct their research over the course of a year, before they received some support from the then Minister, Senator O'Rourke. I was unable to convince the leadership in the Department of Education to give the programme its imprimatur so that it could be introduced in schools.