Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)

I would be forgiven for believing that I am back in the role of Minister. I am shepherding this Bill through the Houses and it is my job to respond to questions raised. I am thankful for the excellent contributions made by all sides of the House. I thank Senator Glynn, the Fianna Fáil spokesperson on health and children in this House, for seconding the Bill and making an excellent contribution. He outlined many issues which have been brought to his attention and which will be noted by those involved in the Bill.

Senator Browne made worthwhile contributions to this debate, including a number of issues and points about charges. These issues will be addressed by regulation based on the viability of the service, namely, that it would not cost the State anything and would be self-financing. Other issues the Senator raised were also worthwhile and, as his party's spokesperson, I thank him for his support for the Bill. I appreciate this as we are taking an all-party approach to an issue that addresses an anomaly. One registers one's car, dog or television but, although they are important to each and every one of us, there are sometimes no records or registrations. There is a shortfall in the system.

The Senator made a point about the retrospective aspect. This would be by voluntary disclosures and would be a matter for each legal practice. It would be in the best interests of the practices to complete a system of filing old files and to have their books centrally registered. They have individual registers of wills but having a central register for all the old wills would give them some security. I have encountered cases where the books have been destroyed or lost, leaving no records. It is a frightful responsibility for any legal firm. For this reason, I have consulted with the Law Society, which has generally welcomed the Bill. The society is currently examining it and I will ask it to suggest amendments.

This Bill will be passed by consensus. It will be an unusual situation as the Minister of State and each Member of the House will table amendments, which I would welcome. We can have an open debate on these issues. We should take into consideration a good point made about British residents, namely, including a provision whereby they could register the fact that wills had been made. This is outside our jurisdiction but could be worth examining.

I thank the Minister of State for contributing as I know the speech was provided by the Department of Health and Children. Having worked in that Department for a number of years, we could say that this matter is not viewed with enthusiasm by the officials. They will grow more enthusiastic as we do, so as to ensure the Bill becomes legislative reality. Ultimately, Ministers and Ministers of State are elected to govern and it is the responsibility of public servants to follow their lead, which is a reminder to the Department's officials.

I know of the negotiations that took place to have this matter on today's Order Paper but that is for another day's discussion and we will not go into it now as we wish to maintain as great a degree of good will from those in the public service dealing with this issue as we can. I am impressed by the Minister of State's identification of important issues in the reading of the Bill, issues that will be dealt with on Committee Stage. Any matter that he or his Department feels should be included will be done so by consensus. I thank him for his enthusiasm in respect of the Bill, as I am aware of the situation that has risen in the Department due to it.

Senator Tuffy is a practising solicitor and has been extremely helpful. She spoke about voluntary registration, which is quite correct. It is important that the Law Society comes on board and it would be good practice to have registration on a voluntary disclosure basis initially. I foresee a day when there will be a central depository for copies of all wills that have been registered properly and held confidentially. At present, the situation is very lax. Wills are held individually in the registers of over 2,100 offices. In many cases, one cannot determine whether certain wills exist, which is not good enough. Senator Tuffy made a number of good points about the information process once the Bill becomes law and about encouraging people to make and update wills.

Senator Brady also made a number of good points. He has taken an interest in the Bill and I thank him for his help. I welcome his point about voluntary services. Death and taxes are indeed inevitable. He spoke about executors of wills. The procedure is that a will should go to probate within one year of the death of the person but it is not necessarily followed. In many cases, executors are being pressured. They may be beneficiaries of the will but so may others, such as nephews and nieces. Often, they are not enthusiastic to have a will go to probate. When we have studied the situation, we may table an amendment to tighten the Bill in this area.

It has been brought to my attention that solicitors are often the sole executors of wills. This is not a good practice as, in many cases, the person in question may have no other relations. In one instance, a person left £50,000 for the saying of masses. I hope God is being good to the person but I am uncertain who ensured the masses were said. The will in question had no other executor and it was up to the solicitor to ensure the wishes were carried out. In another instance, a man who was one of the last of his family alive and lived alone decided to leave all of his land and property to the poor. The solicitor, who was the will's executor, said "Who is poorer than myself?"

Since I brought this issue into the public forum, it is unbelievable how many cases have come to my attention. People are angry about being deprived of their rights. I wish to ensure that wills are made but are also recorded and executed in proper ways.

Senator Kitt has taken a great interest in the Bill and I congratulate him on having made a will. That he went to the trouble to do so is an example to everyone in the House and beyond, as is the fact that his legal firm has amalgamated. This is a good point as, in some cases, practices are sold on and none of its staff remain, meaning the new practice has no idea where a certain will has gone. Storage is a significant problem in Dublin and companies are entering into contracts to store documents.

Finding a document is now very difficult, as is determining which legal firm has it. I have encountered cases where people have searched for wills in Dublin but could not find them. One sad situation involves a father who has Alzheimer's disease and cannot make a will. He and his family are convinced that his will was made and registered with a reputable office in this city but they do not have a record of it. It is sad that his last wishes will never be honoured.