Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)

I hope whatever replaces the prison will be of an equivalent if not better architectural standard. Those who lament the building's demolition should remember that what I propose to have built in north Dublin at Thornton Hall will be of a similar standard for both men and women, and young people currently in St. Patrick's Institution. That is good news.

Senator Brady mentioned padded cells. Regardless of what detention facilities are being kept, a programme has been put in place to replace padded cells with modern observation units. By the end of March 2006 padded cells will be eliminated. I have not spoken on this issue in public before, but I witnessed a padded cell on my first visit to an Irish prison. The cell is about four ft. by four ft. or five ft. by five ft., dark and with grey rubber lining and matting on the floor. A pink light gives subdued lighting. In this instance an adult in his 40s was lying in the foetal position wearing only underpants in the cell. The only other item in the room was a plastic pot. The prisoner had been in the position for days as an argument occurred over whether he should be transferred to Dundrum.

It was a shocking sight to behold. The committee on torture has warned us many times of how wrong these cases are, and I am pleased that such occurrences will be eliminated by March of next year, even in Mountjoy Prison. I am allocating extra funding to that prison to ensure these cells are phased out. No matter what occurs with Thornton Hall, Mountjoy Prison will remain for a number of years yet. No human being should be kept in padded cell conditions.

Historical points were raised by Senators Brady and Mansergh with regard to Spike Island and Mountjoy Prisons. I am conscious of these matters. Some features of Mountjoy Prison are well worth preserving in an architectural treatment. There are some fine examples of stonework which could enhance a replacement development. The execution shed, colloquially known as the hang house, is a national monument in my opinion even though it is not designated as such. Many of our patriots died on those gallows, and I intend to have them removed to Kilmainham Gaol where they can be erected again and preserved. They are examples of places where people paid the supreme sacrifice for Irish freedom, and they should not be forgotten or discarded as part of prison modernisation. We recently removed some bodies of the 1916 to 1921 period from Mountjoy Prison to Glasnevin, but remaining graves and monuments will have to be dealt with appropriately.

The same conditions will apply to Spike Island, which has a graveyard also. It was a place for transportation, and the journals of John Mitchel describe it. A magnificent fortress exists in the centre of the island with impressive architectural features, and there are some interesting Second World War gun emplacements and passageways. There is a range of buildings inside the fortress, some of which have become derelict and roofless, and these must be restored as part of a regeneration project for Spike Island.

The issue of drugs was briefly mentioned and I thank Senators for their comments. There is a notion abroad, although it is rarely articulated, that prisons are easier to run if a certain amount of drug abuse is tolerated. This is very wrong. New policy in this area will be announced in the near future.

With regard to escorts, my preference is for a continuation of the present situation, that is, that prison officers as public servants should carry it out. If this becomes economically impossible I must be in a position to provide a legal alternative means. As Senator Mansergh stated, I will put this proposal forward in Bill form while hoping that I will not be forced to use it and that it will be economically viable to provide prisoner transport using public servants.

We should use CCTV as much as possible. I will not delay the House with the details as we all have a weekend to prepare for, but there is an elaborate plan for a CCTV network. This will involve soundproof cells for consultations between lawyers and clients, and locations from which people can testify and take in what is occurring in court. It makes sense that if a surgeon in Dublin, for example, was required to testify in a personal injuries case in Cork or vice versa, he or she should be able to appear via a televised link to testify before a judge and jury in another place, provided that the interests of justice are properly looked after.

Such a system will be an essential part of how we develop the criminal justice system. It will also minimise costs from transporting people unnecessarily. For example, a remand prisoner in Portlaoise Prison who is a high security risk might be transported from Portlaoise to Green Street in Dublin, along with a large escort, for a hearing that lasts a short time. If he is remanded for another three weeks, he is driven back, with a colossal amount of money having been spent on the operation. It does not have to be spent.

I agree with the point by Senator Cummins that there should be a courthouse at the new campus. The courthouse in Cloverhill deals with many procedural cases. One very frequently comes across cases where a prisoner who may be serving two years for burglary, for example, may be in court for unauthorised interference with a mechanically propelled vehicle. Such a person must go with prison officers to the local District Court where the case is pending for a remand hearing, an adjournment or whatever. As that is not a good way in which to do business, it makes sense to bring the courts system to the prisoners for such applications, in so far as possible. As I noted earlier, there is such a facility at Cloverhill Prison.

I want to thank all the Members for their thoughtful and eloquent contributions to this debate. As far as the comments of Senators Brady and Kett concerning north inner city Dublin are concerned, I believe the end of Mountjoy as a prison facility provides an enormous opportunity. Twenty acres of prime land will become available for a landmark development which will improve north inner city Dublin dramatically. Given the possibility of installing water features on the site which will connect directly to the Royal Canal, architects will drool at the possibilities of developing it. One must also remember that the site value will be colossal compared to the money spent at Thornton.

Senator Jim Walsh raised the procedure regarding the certification of contractors as suitable people and queried whether the appeals procedure should be conducted through the courts. While an appeal to the courts is a cumbersome method to achieve a result, if one denies people their livelihoods, under the European Convention on Human Rights and as a matter of justice, one must have some form of appeal system. I agree that loading extra work onto the courts system is undesirable. However, we must have some form of independent appeal for people whose livelihoods might be at risk.

As for the points raised by Senator Henry, I want to assure her that I was not looking in her direction when I raised the point about moral confusion. I take it as certain that someone of the Senator's professional background would regard prisoners having easy access to hard drugs as a complete catastrophe. It is an unspeakable proposition. Whatever the purpose of prison may be, it is not to have people entering the system without a drug habit but emerging with one. That is certainly not one of society's goals for its prison system.

I share the view strongly expressed by a number of Members that we must always regard imprisonment as a last resort — in particular, because in the main, it is visited upon marginalised young men in our society. As Governor Lonergan has noted, one can examine their postal addresses and almost predict where they will end up from childhood, because of their family circumstances, educational difficulties, bad luck and the like. It behoves us to have a criminal justice system in which, if possible, people are not sent for short periods into a system which consequently brands them as being unsuitable for many jobs and puts them on the back foot for the rest of their lives. However, we have an expanding population and within 30 years, between 6 and 8 million people will live on this island again, as they did before the Famine. It is naive to believe that we can cut back on our current number of prison spaces.

The revolving door was a cause of enormous public concern when it existed in the mid-1990s. I accept the Judiciary must play its part in ensuring that people are not inappropriately imprisoned and society must be willing to fund the alternatives, such as probation, supervision, restorative justice, community service and the like. Nevertheless, once public sentiment comes to the point, as it did in the mid-1990s, where it no longer believes that people serve sentences imposed by the courts due to incompetence on the State's part and an unwillingness to run a decent service, the people's sense of well-being implodes. Once the subliminal attitude that people walk out of prison without serving their sentences because of a lack of space takes hold of public opinion, there is enormous cynicism, a sense of desperation and a complete lack of faith in the rule of law as an end in itself.

I thank the Members for their thoughtful contributions to today's debate. I look forward to Committee Stage, when undoubtedly, this Bill will be improved by a careful line by line analysis.