Mary Henry (Independent)

It is very important that prisoners are able to talk to their legal advisers in person before they give evidence by video link because face-to-face communication is not the same as talking to someone via video link. It is certainly not the same when one is having a medical consultation with someone. I am sure the Minister will give us further information.

I have no problem, in principle, with private firms running prison escort services but I am anxious that we do not do so simply because it is cheaper. A large proportion of prisoners are violent and dangerous individuals. One prisoner escaped from a hospital at gunpoint recently. The general public should not be put in danger by plans to cut the costs of the prison escort service. Under the new system proposed in the Bill, prison custody officers are to receive training, the amount of which has not been specified. However, we know that prison officers' training is not very long. I would like more details regarding the kind of training prison custody officers will receive because they will be involved with violent and dangerous individuals. They will rarely escort those accused of petty crimes.

Under the terms of the Bill, prisoners can be escorted to places other than prison so violent, dangerous and psychotic prisoners could be escorted to the Central Mental Hospital or other hospitals. Will there be any gradation in cases of which prison officers or prison custody officers will be in charge? It appears from the Bill that both groups will do the same kind of work. There should be a thorough examination of the kind of people prison custody officers will be escorting because I am sure the Minister does not wish to see the public put in danger.

I can understand the Minister's reason for moving Mountjoy Prison; it is very valuable property. The prisoners will be moved to a site that has been likened to outer Mongolia by some people. I am sure a better prison will be built on the new site; it could not be worse than the current prison. I recently brought some Italian visitors around the current prison and nearly died of shame when we visited the basement. I have visited Italian prisons and one would not see anything like Mountjoy Prison in the Italian system, apart from the oldest prisons which are kept as ancient monuments. It is a disgraceful prison. I will not address the rights or wrongs of the property that has been acquired for the new prison because I know little about real estate.

There is a severe shortage of hostels for people released from prison. People frequently object when released prisoners are given houses in their areas. In light of the very large proportion of prisoners incarcerated in Mountjoy Prison, will the Minister promise to build a few hostels for both men and women near the site of the new prison? Some people leave prison and have nowhere to go but the streets. I see that I am making progress on this Bill.

Under the terms of the Bill, Loughan House and Shelton Abbey will apparently become private prisons. I am not sure if Spike Island will be reopened as a private institution. I was concerned about a report by the prisons inspectorate which recommended privatising some prisons. I do not have a deep-rooted objection to privatising prisons; it would be excellent if it was the better option. However, I have never read a piece of good academic research which examined the merits of private and public prisons thoroughly. Private prisons must be run for profit and it is very difficult when one is looking at the cost per prisoner to find out whether the prisoners were in the same category, given the same treatment or had a lower or higher recidivism rate.

I am grateful to the Irish Penal Reform Trust for supplying me with information and my researcher, Kasey Cleary, who has carried out research into the US prison service. We must discover the best course of action before we start privatising prisons. If one looks at the US prison service, where there is a considerable amount of privatisation, the costs of running private and public prisons in Iowa are much higher than those in Colorado. One then discovers that pay rates are lower in Colorado and that medical facilities in the state's private prisons are not licensed by the state's Department of Public Health and the Environment. None of us wants to end up with substandard prisons simply because they are cheaper.

The Minister is aware from my contributions to other debates that I am less than enthusiastic about expanding the Prison Service, which is incredibly costly and has a recidivism rate of nearly 90%. At the same time, our probation and welfare service is pathetically starved of funds. A ridiculous state of affairs exists whereby people are repeatedly given very short prison sentences, which only seem to train them for their return to prison. I query the value of building more prisons. We would be better off using international developments in restorative justice and drugs courts, both of which have been successful in Ireland, rather than developing an enthusiasm for building very expensive prisons. It makes no difference if they are public or private prisons because private operators must be given subsidies to build prisons so the money must come from the public purse. Public prisons are built directly by the State. I have little enthusiasm for further prison building.

The technological improvements in prisons like Cloverhill, such as electronic locking and the use of handprints to facilitate access, have helped to improve the conditions of prison staff. I am glad the Minister came to an agreement with the prison officers, who do a job, especially in Mountjoy Prison, that would not be the choice of many people. I agree with the Minister that the conditions in Mountjoy Prison are outrageous. It is extraordinary to think there was in-cell sanitation in the prison until the 1930s, when someone decided it should be taken away as part of an economy drive. We should be careful when deciding to pursue economy drives. The Minister spoke earlier about confused moral thinking about drug-free prisons. I am sure I was being paranoid when I thought the Minister was looking at me when he made those remarks.