Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)

I recall taking issue with a county manager of some standing 20 years ago with regard to reducing the level of expenditure within the county. I suggested a saving of £100,000 and identified and itemised how that could be done. He took me to task and said that the service to the community in the county would collapse as a consequence of my suggestions. The following year when Fianna Fáil came to power — when because of the profligacy of the Labour-Fine Gael Government of the time the country was almost bankrupt and the IMF was threatening to come in and take over — it took strong steps to reduce expenditure. That county council had its expenditure cut by £1 million. I did not have to make any suggestions then about where savings could be made as the county manager was quite happy to identify where they could be made, despite the fact that the previous year the £100,000 saving I suggested would have collapsed the whole service. This discipline must be imposed within the service because it is simply not there.

I welcome the provisions in the Bill that will lead to the probable and earliest possible closure of Mountjoy Prison. Without doubt, it is an outdated, Victorian institution which should not be part of our prison services. People should not be put into the type of situation where slopping-out is part of the daily environment. It is difficult to get people in such conditions to concentrate on rehabilitation. These conditions are demeaning. There is a stark contrast between visits to Mountjoy and visits to the Dóchas Centre, which is a fine modern institution for the retention of offenders.

I agree fully with the Minister that incarceration should be a last resort. Unfortunately, all too often we see people emerge from prisons, often after relatively minor offences, well equipped to progress to more serious crime. Within prison they have made contact with a network that brings them into a more serious crime regime. We must avoid this. Community service, fines, suspended sentences, restorative justice and court orders restricting movement are alternatives that should be used to make people recompense society and rehabilitate offenders. Prison should be a last resort. The amount of drugs available in prisons must also be counterproductive to achieving any success in rehabilitation of prisoners. The Minister recognises that and I am glad he intends to take more stringent steps in that regard. Hopefully, the construction of a new prison will assist that process.

I am glad that, arising from the most recent report, the Minister intends to extend the trial use of video links in pre-trial court hearings. I agree with him that video linking should be used to the maximum extent possible. I have some concern with regard to a construction in the Bill which states a court "may" direct, thereby making the provision discretionary. I fear interpretation of this by a court will err on the side of caution towards the prisoner. The idea that something is unfair to the accused could be widely interpreted. Will the Minister consider tightening that provision as the Bill proceeds? In a situation where video linking could prejudice the defence of the prisoner, there is sufficient reason it should not be used. If, however, a prisoner just wants to be able to eyeball or intimidate a witness, it is not necessary that he or she is present in the court and a video link would suffice.

There are accompanying costs to the presence of prisoners in court, for example, Garda time. We have had much debate here on Garda resources. Any local superintendent can tell us that on court days large numbers of gardaí are tied up with the courts. Also, because of the inefficiencies within the court system and how it operates, gardaí can be tied up indefinitely and may have to go back on a second day on the same case. This is wasteful of manpower and something must be done in this regard. I compliment the Minister because the use of video-link evidence in trials is a step in the right direction. However, it may not be utilised to its proper extent so I believe that the avoidance of its use should be the exception rather than the rule. Video-link evidence can lead to considerable savings and has been used successfully in other countries.

I welcome the provisions of the Bill, which will have an impact. The Bill is another step in the essential task of improving the operation, efficiency and cost-effectiveness of the Prison Service.