Joe O'Toole (Independent)

I suspect I might be a lonely voice in this debate. Rugadh agus tógadh mé i measc iascairí i nDaingean Uí Chúis, which is Dingle in English. I do not like the idea of a buyout, which was the approach taken to the Native Americans and Aborigines — buy them out; put them out of work; put them into reservations; and forget about them. This is not the correct approach. While many different views exist, we need to be realistic. Based on my calculations and what I have heard more salmon were landed after the season this year than during the season. While I might be wrong, somebody must know the answer.

During the summer, I drove through the area where the Acting Chairman, Senator Finucane, lives and I stopped my car in awe close to Glin. I watched two people on a boat ten yards from me with a fine drift net floating along and nobody took any notice of them. While in my boat coming from Dingle to Kilrush I met the Bradán Feasa vessel which was trying to cover the whole area from Dingle to the Aran Islands and back down in one day. It is clear that the elimination of licences will not solve this issue. Some 40 licences are held in County Kerry. If the Minister of State suppressed them tomorrow morning it would change nothing. Many people talking about this subject believe it would make a difference. While I am opposed to it, buying out all the drift net people would not stop them fishing. This is the oldest activity in this island and we need to be realistic about the matter. I have heard that anglers blame fishermen but in my experience fishermen blame anglers.

During the week I listened to former Senator Ken Whitaker having a go at the fishing policy. When Mr. Whitaker was Secretary of the Department of Finance he produced two national economic plans in the late 1950s and early 1960s, which were the basis on which we entered the EEC. Not one paragraph in either plan dealt with fisheries. Mr. Whitaker could have done us a favour in the 1950s and 1960s so that we did not sell out our birthright when we joined the EEC in 1973.

The fishermen point to the pollution in the rivers, which means that the salmon cannot live when they swim upriver. The point made by the Minister of State is correct. In many cases the take from the rivers is higher than the take from the sea.

I have seen Spanish trawlers in Dingle with a quota of 20 tonnes or 30 tonnes per week and beside them were Irish boats tied up with a quota of 2 tonnes or 3 tonnes per month. It is no wonder the industry is falling apart and it is time we did some rough negotiations with Brussels. This is dealt with in different ways. I do not believe it is an issue of licensing. I do not believe it is just about drift net fishing. I disagree with the point the Minister of State and other speakers made about seals. In Canada no drift net fishing is allowed until sufficient salmon have swum upriver to refresh the stocks and to feed the bears. Seals have always been in our seas and the problem is pollution in the rivers.

Another problem relates to the rivers being considered. The real problem does not lie just in the big rivers like the Shannon, but in the small rivers. I looked at those small rivers in the summer and not only were the levels down by 1.5 m or 2 m in the Shannon, but at points in small rivers where the salmon seek to come upriver, dead salmon were lying in front the dams and weirs. As the river levels are down, the salmon have in some cases only a foot of water in which to propel themselves upriver and they are dying there because nature will not allow them to go back. We need to look at our rivers. Money needs to be invested into restocking the rivers. We should stop drift netting while salmon are coming upriver. We should implement the laws on domestic, farming and commercial pollution and should reconsider drawing off water to fill reservoirs.

We need to consider how to deal with the late run of salmon upriver. We should seek the support of fishermen on land and at sea on the first run to stop drift netting and on the second run to help the salmon go upriver. Some 95% of the salmon returning to a river do not survive, which is nature's way. They come, lay their eggs and go back downriver. Some 90% to 95% of them never make it back to sea again. They need to be helped and in some cases this means taking the eggs from the salmon and reinserting them in the river.

We do not need the matter dealt with by bureaucrats; it can be dealt with by the fishing people at sea and on land. Heads need to be knocked together. I have made three or four suggestions today which I believe to be more effective in the long term and which fishermen will police themselves as they do in Canada and elsewhere. I would like to hear more from the Minister of State on how countries like Canada deal with the matter. It can be done. We do not need to suppress the fishing industry as we have done too many times before. We do not need to buy out fishermen or put them out of work. We need to consider what is happening in the industry with boats from Spain landing 30 or 40 tonnes of hake and john dory per week while Irish boats remain tied up. This is part of the problem. There is nowhere to go if the licences are suppressed. We need to take a broader look at the matter

We are paying the price for what happened years ago. Has anyone looked at a map and wondered why Kenmare River is called so when it is clearly a bay? It is because those people who ran this country for 800 years decided that fishing rights belonged to the owners of the land and a law was passed in Westminster to declare Kenmare Bay to be Kenmare River. Fishermen have come across such obstacles all their lives. Tonight on the Adjournment, I will raise the matter of the fishing rights on the river at Clahane. While I will not deal with the matter now, it is an issue we need to consider and I would like to see money invested into the development of such areas.