Joe O'Toole (Independent)

I know the points Senator Quinn is making and I have heard them many times from entrepreneurs and others. It would be very helpful if the Minister of State could put on record certain facts so Senator Quinn can convey to the people he meets in future that Ireland has the best or next best strike record in western Europe. It holds this record because many people put much blood, sweat and tears into achieving it. It is only done on a basis of trust and confidence. That is the way it works throughout. The reason people set up in Ireland is that they can deal with a trade union that can, for example, listen to proposals, deal with them in a mature fashion and move forward. They are not looking to precedent established 100 years ago to determine how to deal with today's business. That is enormously important and it is crucial for outsiders to see how we do our business here.

I do not have a problem with an agreed basis. I merely question how something may be agreed that has not been determined on the basis of some type of election. How can there be an agreed basis without an election or without some representative body dealing with it? Who says it is an agreed basis? If there are, for example, 100 people in a company, how is what constitutes an agreed basis decided upon? That is the issue as far as I am concerned. There must be some democratic means for arriving at that conclusion. If everyone decides by election to adopt a system — which I do not understand — without an election, that is fine. However, I do not want this to be left open to challenge in the courts at some future date, with a particularly smart lawyer citing this legislation and saying, in effect, that there was an agreed basis — agreed with ten, four, 20 or whatever number. There is no need for even a majority. The manner in which it is written is wrong.

I do not object to the points made by Senator Quinn. I appreciate that a balance must always be found. Perhaps the Minister of State might take me out of my difficulty and insert a further interpretation of what an agreed basis means and indicate perhaps, that it must mean a natural majority. There must be some system that is democratically or electorally based. If the word "election" frightens people to some extent, I cannot do anything about that. However, there must be some democratic system for an agreed basis. Such a basis must involve finding the views of the majority of employees. I cannot envisage any other type of agreed basis and that is my difficulty. I am not trying to twist it around or to make matters more difficult for employers. I want to be able to do what Senator Quinn wants to do. I want to be able to assure employees or employers that this is fair. I just want it to be fair and to be seen to be fair, absolutely open and above board, so that nobody can argue otherwise. That is all I am trying to achieve and also that we will know that constitutes an agreed basis.