David Norris (Independent)

I am happy to add my strong support to this important initiative. We are very lucky to have friends in the United States such as Senators Kennedy and McCain and representatives Kolbe, Flake and Gutierrez. We are also lucky to have former Taoiseach, John Bruton, nicely positioned in Washington as European Union representative. I am sure he would never consider abusing that position but it is always valuable to have people present to create a climate of opinion.

I am curious as to why there seems to be so much dispute about the figures. The United States Government seems to believe there are 3,000 illegal Irish immigrants. Others say there are 50,000 and the Minister says there are approximately 25,000. He suggested some kind of computer tracking but this seems to have fizzled out.

In his speech, the Minister stated: "In the aftermath of the tragic events of 11 September, the United States Government moved quickly and decisively to confront the threat of terrorism at home." In spite of all my goodwill towards the United States, I do not agree with that statement. Its Government moved clumsily and ineffectively to address the threat. It actually inhibited seriously the civil and human rights of its own citizens and those of people seeking to enter the United States, either for travel or business, or permanently.

The United States has traditionally experienced mass immigration. In all countries, including our own, people get pernickety over these issues. I sometimes wonder how legal was the mass influx of people into America, North and South, in the initial stages. Did anybody invite the people in, were they vetted and did they have proper permits? We flooded the United States with European people who wiped out as many members of the indigenous population as they could. On the penetration of the United States from Mexico, most of the people concerned are the descendants of people who were in North America long before the Untied States was every contemplated. This is a little ironic.

Figures from Homeland Security statistics suggest that, between 1981 and 1990, Ireland contributed 31,969 people. In the ten-year period from 1991 to 2000, this figure rose to 56,900, which is almost 60,000. However, in 2001, this number dropped to between 1,000 and 1,500 and remained at approximately this level ever since. This tells a tale. Between 2000 and 2004, some 273 Irish people were actually deported from the United States. This also shows a change in attitude in that country.

Although I am sometimes a critic of the Roman Catholic Church, I believe it, including some of its current and past bishops, among them Bishop Eamon Casey, has done very remarkable, generous and good-hearted work on behalf of Irish emigrants in both Britain and the United States. It was very interesting that Bishop Seamus Hegarty launched the initiative Supporting the Irish Abroad. I read a very interesting article by Fr. Michael Leonard, who drew a very interesting comparison between the slavery of Saint Patrick in Ireland and the conditions of Irish emigrants abroad. He states: "Because many of them are 'illegal' they are forced to work longer hours for less wages and with none of the benefits, which are available to the rest of the work force." Let me put this in a particular context and refer to a statement by a very distinguished female cleric, Sr. Stanislaus Kennedy, who has worked tirelessly for the poor of this country. She stated migrant workers on work permits in Ireland tend to be in low-paid work, often below the minimum wage, and that finding good quality affordable accommodation can be difficult. She also claimed that, as work permits are of a temporary nature, there is little guarantee of permanent employment and that, as a result, people are forced to stay in rented accommodation. Is it not interesting to put these two views together?

The people Sr. Stanislaus Kennedy refers to are migrant workers, who are in the country legally. What about the asylum seekers and refugees? Although I support the initiative under discussion, I cry shame on a Government that does not see the discrepancy between what it is asking the United States to do for our people and the way in which we treat people who come to this country in identical circumstances. We have forgotten the nature of the Irish experience in Britain and America. It is shameful. It is inappropriate for Ministers to trot around telling cock and bull stories to the effect that many asylum seekers are bogus without stating any referenced facts.

Let me put on the record the case of a Nigerian man who came here in 2000, as I did some days ago on the Order of Business. In that year he applied for refugee status in Ireland on humanitarian grounds but was denied. On 11 September, that extraordinary date, he was found washed up in Skerries after having committed suicide. He was denied the right to stay in this country and was to be forcibly repatriated. He killed himself on foot of a deportation order. This was not a cock and bull story but the story of somebody who felt the alternative of taking his own life was preferable to returning to the country in which he had been born. We, as citizens of this country, with all our privileges, should bear that in mind and remember that the experience of such people entering our country must be considered with the same sensitivity we request from the authorities in the United States.

Let me conclude by quoting one of the most splendid politicians of the past 30 or 40 years, that is, Senator Edward Kennedy. When in America I have often watched him on C-SPAN television. He is not in the glare of publicity but is working hard and with real political intelligence and moral commitment on a raft issues. He really got it right when he stated: "We offer a fair deal: if they are willing to work hard for us openly, then we're willing to do something fair for them. It's long past time to put the underground economy, above ground, and recognize the reality of immigrants in our workforce." Hear, hear, say I. However, let us learn this lesson ourselves and apply it to the circumstances in our own jurisdiction and not just try to teach it to the Americans.