Paul Bradford (Fine Gael)

I welcome the Minister to the House. It is significant the Seanad will now join the Dáil in passing this motion and in showing the strength of support in the Oireachtas for the Irish community who are undocumented in the United States. I agree with everything the Minister has said. Above all, I want to reflect on and reiterate his statement that "we understand that meeting the needs of our community living abroad is one such important responsibility and we are fully committed to meeting it".

It is rather strange that ten or 15 years ago, the question of the illegal Irish in the United States was a big domestic political issue in this House and in the body politic. Thereafter, we thought the problem had resolved itself with the strong economic growth and performance in Ireland. While we did not expect the issue to re-emerge, it has done so and must now be dealt with. We are fortunate that efforts are now being made in the US Senate and House of Representatives to try to bring help and hope to the undocumented.

As the Minister has noted, it is difficult to quantify the numbers involved. I was involved in one of the visits by parliamentarians to Washington earlier in the year, as part of a delegation of the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs. Every meeting we attended gave us a different impression as to the numbers of undocumented or illegal Irish. The Minister has attempted to fix upon a figure of approximately 25,000, which appears to be a reasonable estimate.

One big difference I noted at that time compared to my visit to the United States in 1989 was that in 1989, the illegal Irish in New York and elsewhere in north America were well organised and had a strong leadership group. On this occasion, possibly because a different type of immigrant is affected or because the type of undocumented situation differs, there does not appear to be the same leadership among the undocumented in the United States. This is a difficulty. In that regard, Members should note the enormous efforts being made by church charities and by Irish communities in the United States in trying to achieve unity and a sense of purpose among the undocumented. This is extremely important.

While I welcome the passing of this motion, we must also be realistic as to what will be eventually passed by the United States Congress from the perspective of immigration control and security. We must also be realistic about the timeframe. When we visited the United States earlier this year, expectations were high that major impetus would be given to the immigration and visa issue by the autumn session or by winter. However the entire congressional calendar will now have changed, given the effects of the hurricanes in Florida and the ensuing crisis across the southern states. At best, the expected timeframe for the immigration issue to receive serious debate will be put back for a significant number of months. We must be patient.

As regards the specific proposal supported by this motion, we all recognise it would be the best solution for the Irish community. However, we must also recognise there are a significant number of visa Bills now before the House of Representatives and the Senate. It is fair to state that although with any luck, legislation will be passed next year, it is likely to be a merger of quite a number of Bills. As the Minister has stated, we would be most happy if the Kennedy-McCain Bill was passed because of the residency options it would provide to the undocumented Irish in the United States. However, we must take whatever is on offer.

In the 1980s and early 1990s, such people wished to remain in the United States permanently. However, unlike then and given the opinions of many people I met on the joint committee's visit as well as of many undocumented people of whom I am personally aware, my understanding is that many undocumented immigrants want work permits and certainty about the ability to travel to and fro. These are their immediate priorities. For some, residency would be preferable but we must actively work to ensure the undocumented become documented, that they will have work permits and will be able to return home for family functions such as funerals, weddings, etc.

When we hold debates on visa programmes we all support whichever programme is on offer. There is no political divide in this respect. We can ignore the fact we are possibly failing to take full advantage of some of the programmes in place. This point was made very strongly to Senator Mooney, myself and other members of the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs by former US Congressman, Bruce Morrison, who will be fondly remembered in Ireland due to the Morrison visa programme. He asked and challenged us to try to take fuller advantage of some of the current schemes. We should take his advice and try to amend the Walsh diversity visa programme as only a tiny percentage of these visas have been taken up.

Former Congressman Morrison suggested we should seek an extension of the J1 worker programme as opposed to the student visa programme. Another of his suggestions and one the Minister should act upon is that we should enter into a bilateral programme on working holiday visas with the US. That is the arrangement in place between Ireland and Australia in that Irish students can travel to and work in Australia for 12 months and Australian students can do likewise here. We should attempt to develop a working holiday programme with the US.

The issue of undocumented immigrants is a major problem but there are other means of addressing aspects of the problem rather than proposing a single immigration Bill. I hope we will examine these means. I have a deep appreciation for what Senators McCain and Kennedy are attempting to do at a very different level than has been previously the case. There is strong all-party support and two of the most senior members of the Senate are involved. It also occurs during a time of a changed political climates in the US. Even the Title of the Bill tells its own tale in that it is no longer an immigration Bill or a visa Bill but the Secure America and Orderly Immigration Bill.

We must concede and recognise the fact that security is the prime issue in the US. In the 1980s, the so-called "illegals" did not comprise an issue that got prime political attention. However, the matter of undocumented immigrations has now been mixed with the security issue. For this reason any solution will be as much about the security side of the equation as the visa side. In some of the meetings held by the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs with various Senators and legal representatives, the strong message the committee received was that security was first on the agenda and visas were second.

As this debate develops over the next number of months, we hope the Bill will be taken seriously by the members of Congress and that a compromise proposal will be made. I welcome today's debate, which is a small but significant show of support from the Irish Houses of Parliament. It is important that our support be conveyed to the US Congress. We are all aware of Senator Kennedy's record on Irish issues and we welcome on board Senator John McCain, a very senior politician, and their colleagues in the House of Representatives. However, it would be unrealistic to expect this Bill will have an easy passage. We must accept there will be compromises, additions and subtractions but what is important is that the issue of undocumented immigrants is addressed.

It was made clear to the members of the committee that, while the number of undocumented persons in the US is large and possibly unquantifiable, all of these people are working and contributing to the country's economy. One public representative who visited the committee conceded that, without the undocumented labour force in the US, American agriculture and horticulture would shut down. Therefore, it is in the interests of the US and its economy to resolve the issue and ensure that work permits, whether they are straightforward work permits or permits leading to permanent residency, are put in place, the sooner the better.

We must be cautious about sending signals of absolute optimism to the Irish community in the US due to the change in the congressional calendar and other issues arising from events surrounding Hurricane Katrina. When in Washington, I felt strong, positive vibes that the issue is being taken seriously. I welcome this and suggest we should use whatever influence we have through this House and our embassy staff, who are doing outstanding work, to keep in touch with American policy makers and help put in place a programme for the 10,000, 15,000 or 25,000 undocumented Irish in the US. I ask the Minister to take Bruce Morrison's advice to examine schemes currently in place and determine how we can build upon and expand them so that any of them that are good for Ireland are also good for the US.