Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)

I welcome the Minister of State to the House and I warmly welcome the Bill. Listening to Senator Leyden made it clear to me that there was a glaring gap in the drafting of this Bill, which occurs in section 1. There is no definition of a key word, "undertaking". If there were a definition, we could answer the Senator's question whether the Bill applies to Departments and Government agencies, or if it just applies to certain commercial enterprises. It may be that "undertaking" is defined in the European directive, but I recommend that the Minister of State add an amendment giving a definition of such a key term.

This Bill is very much in keeping with the ethos of social partnership which has been of so much benefit to us. I cannot see that it poses any problems of over-regulation or that it might frighten employers. It is not the same thing as requiring them to accept unions, but it would be essential practice for any employer to have some mechanism of consultation and if a sufficient number of employees want consultation on a matter, it should be granted.

Social partnership comes under attack from two quarters. We heard from Senator Leyden of the ideological, very left wing view of those people who wish to revive class war and confrontation and to "Scargillise" the Irish trade union movement. I am glad to say they do not tend to make a great deal of progress these days. We saw in the ESB and a year or two ago in the ASTI dispute that the other trade unions do not allow that kind of approach to go too far. One also gets attacks on social partnership from what I broadly describe as the "right".

The Leader mentioned yesterday a very interesting and well-written article by Senator Quinn in The Irish Times. I do not, however, subscribe to the view that social partnership detracts in some way from democracy, rather it enhances it. I do not like the idea that those of us who are privileged to be Members of the Oireachtas have rights other groups and citizens do not, even if we have been elected. I believe very much in participatory democracy, which means something far more than simply having an elected assembly. Politicians are not necessarily the right people to negotiate and decide what social partnership agreements should entail. Part of our role is to act as watchdogs and another part is to act as legislators. It is correct that plans involving the interests of unions, employers, farmers, etc., should be negotiated by those interests. I would still contend were I in Opposition that the Opposition should not necessarily be involved as one needs an independent voice which is not directly involved and which is able to criticise. Of course, the Oireachtas is involved in the more consultative National Economic and Social Forum which has produced very useful reports on the care of the elderly and the very young.

It is a question of striking the right balance. As we can see from some of our European partners, over-heavy regulation and excessive bureaucratisation can be off-putting and discouraging to investors. While we are not exempt from the danger of going down that path ourselves, I am not in favour of the view that what is in the interest of employers is necessarily in all our interests. From time to time I see actions which disturb me greatly and cause me to wonder about the management theories taught in some of the institutes. The scandalous matter of Irish Ferries was discussed on the Order of Business this morning. We all have an interest in the issue as Irish Ferries was once a State-owned company which was sold off to the private sector. What is proposed is no great advertisement for privatisation. It is completely irresponsible to behave in a manner which is totally offensive to the ethos of the vast majority of people in our society and almost every group. Members of every party raised objections this morning, which was right. I hope Irish Ferries takes note of the Taoiseach's comments which represented the views of the vast majority of us.

Another decision which disturbed me considerably was the appointment of an individual as vice-chairman of a bank who is before a tribunal on foot of certain actions. The appointment seems to cock a snook at the rest of society. I have said several times and say again that I still feel very sore about somebody who made a profit of approximately 2,000% as a result of a poorly informed Government decision in 1995-96 and promptly became non-resident to avoid paying taxes. We require socially responsible employers. While it is in the interest of employees that companies make the profits they need to survive, it should happen in an ethical and socially-responsible manner. I hope the legislation before the House makes a small contribution to that objective.