Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)

On the latter point, I have witnessed a perceived bias of a small section of the public service against politicians. I have seen councillors and Oireachtas Members being excluded and, unfortunately, Ministers who are not in charge of their brief go along with it. We are fortunate that does not apply to the Minister with us today.

I am unhappy with two of the amendments. Amendment No. 41 inserted the phrase "(including persons representing local community interests)". The only people I know of who represent local community interests in general are elected public representatives. Community-based specific interest groups do effective work, and I do not state that they should not be involved. However, they should not be involved in joint policing committees, be that a popular or unpopular statement. I also have strong reservations about amendment No. 48, which deals with the Minister being the person to ultimately make a decision if a dispute arises.

Overall this is amazingly good legislation. The joint policing committee was one of the positive innovative aspects the Minister introduced in the Bill. We had a major debate on that matter and I do not want to rehash it. What I have seen since that debate confirms rather than changes the views I held on the joint policing committee. It can be a forum for dialogue and partnership between local authority members, Oireachtas Members and the Garda Síochána. It is the first tier of accountability for the Garda Síochána. I am more convinced than ever of the real need for such a structure. We have a clear choice. Either those who have been mandated by the people to represent them engage with the Garda Síochána on the joint policing committee where the actions and performance of gardaí will, in time, become part of what will be discussed by that committee, or we broaden it to a catch-all involving many types of interest groups. Undoubtedly the discussions will be on the specific activities of those interest groups. The element of accountability would be impossible to implement as part of that structure. I discussed that matter with senior gardaí who felt it would be difficult for them to be forthcoming with answers and information in a broadened committee. That dynamic could exist with an elected group with responsibilities, such as councillors and Oireachtas Members who operate under a code of ethics.

I will make an analogy in local government with the strategic policy committees and the area committees. I have yet to meet a councillor who will state the strategic policy committees, which involve outside community representatives from various organisations, are in any way as effective as the area committees made up exclusively of officials and politicians. The Minister should examine and analyse that analogy. Joint policing committees made up exclusively of elected members and gardaí should be set up in some areas to examine how they function. An essential element of accountability would be injected into the process.

We should not set up the committees and see how they get on. The Department should plan them and hold properly conducted seminars to advise councillors, Oireachtas Members and gardaí on how they should operate, interact and function, and on the powers of the committee. Future members of the committees should be provided with that background. Through the fora communities can actively interact with the entire system and structure. That is where community groups relevant to the subject matter can be fully and actively involved. I would leave it to the local representatives and gardaí to make a decision on people from public authorities, community groups or other persons provided for in the guidelines being involved with the joint policing committee. Circumstances may arise where they would regard the involvement of a certain person or group as a positive factor in the operation of the whole process but that local knowledge is essential to making that decision rather than it being done centrally in the Department by the Minister. I regret that I am not fully in agreement with the Minister but we have ploughed through this issue previously. I feel strongly about it and my only interest is the effective implementation of this measure. It has tremendous potential and I would not like to see that potential blunted in some way because of structural changes, and I am aware much campaigning has been going on in that regard.