Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)

I would like to address a single issue. Much of the undertone in the debate is that the very effective Northern Ireland model should operate here. That is open to debate but the way the argument to date has completely ignored significant cultural, historical and political differences between the North and the South. A large part of the community in the North did not, and does not, have confidence in or support the police in the administration of justice and so on, which is not the case in this jurisdiction. A further problem in the North is that the junior Minister in this area is assumed to be lined up with or under the thumb of the so-called securocrats and is not seen as impartial. The ombudsman office was set up because of the particular difficulties. Perhaps it will change but no local politician or set of politicians has control, responsibility or accountability for justice and security in the North.

Following weeks and months of intense debate about various issues in the Minister's brief and, chiefly, events in Donegal, the Government and the Minister are directly responsibly and accountable for overall policy and correcting serious defects that emerge in the administration of justice and policing in the State. The Northern system does not have anybody comparable to the Minister. I refer to a comparison, which is not valid. Do we want the Minister and the Government to be accountable for policing generally, as opposed to individual decisions, and to have responsibility for correcting serious scandals that emerge in particular areas? People are not comparing like with like. Nobody has stated a desire to seriously diminish the responsibility of the Minister for the state of policing and the improvement thereof in our system. The balance is different because there is not a political vacuum here similar to Northern Ireland. While recent events have shaken confidence in the way the Garda operated in Donegal, nonetheless, overall there is a higher level of confidence here in the police than in the North.

I agree with my party spokesperson, Senator Jim Walsh, regarding another comparison. Is it valid to compare the ombudsman function relating to police to the regular Ombudsman or Information Commissioner? Without diminishing the seriousness of the matters with which the Ombudsman, Ms O'Reilly, deals, the police ombudsman will have serious and critical issues to address. I prefer to examine substance over presentation because substance is more important. The Special Criminal Court comprises three judges. We have had single judge tribunals but I do not think that they have always operated effectively. There is a case for somebody in the position of ombudsman to have colleagues with whom he or she can discuss issues.

Reference was made to the question of people voting and non-voting. In the vast majority of cases, issues are thrashed out for as long as it takes and a collegial decision is taken as is the case with Government. The notion of open differences undermining confidence in the office has no bearing on reality. Where critical decisions must be taken, which may affect public confidence in the Garda in a particular area or generally, the maximum consultation and considered decision making will take place. I would prefer that the ombudsman should not be a lonely decision maker who must make decisions on his or her own. Two other people should be appointed with whom he or she can consult.