Maurice Hayes (Independent)

I was one of those who argued strongly in favour of a single ombudsman. I continue to prefer such a model. I accept that the Minister has moved a considerable distance in our direction. We are now charged with encouraging him to find an amiable extrovert to fill the office in question. The key argument in favour of a one-person ombudsman model is brand recognition. It is important that the public are aware that a certain person is the police ombudsman. I am glad that the chairperson of the ombudsman commission will be seen to be running the show. The chairperson will be the important person.

Some of the points made by other Members, particularly Senator Brian Hayes, are worthy of consideration. I would be very worried if the entrails of the ombudsman commission were to be constantly exposed to scrutiny. That would be the wrong way of dealing with the matter. In making a decision, the commission will be exercising a quasi-judicial function. It is like asking a judge why he did something that way, rather than this way. Concerns about split decisions, etc., would be removed if we had a one-person ombudsman, but that is another story.

I would be anxious for the ombudsman commission to organise itself in such a way that we will not have to wait for it to hold a monthly meeting before it makes a decision. It should have the capacity to make decisions on the run.

I was glad to hear the Minister's reference to decentralisation, which could be quite unwise in this case. As an investigative office, the ombudsman commission should be placed as near as possible to the location from which the bulk of one's business will emanate. If one examines the demographics of this country, one will be given an indication of from where the bulk of the commission's business will come. I am glad that the Minister is prepared to keep that in mind.

I would like to discuss the reference in the Bill to Oireachtas committees. While we cannot include a specific requirement in the Bill, it is desirable that the Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights should examine the operation of the ombudsman commission at least once a year. The committee should debate and discuss the issues which are raised in the commission's report.

I am glad that the Bill makes provision for informal resolution and mediation, which should be encouraged. I am quite worried about one part of the Bill, however. I refer to the question of access to Garda stations. The Minister said that he will designate Garda stations where specific intelligence is held. I agree with his desire and duty to protect the intelligence of the State, but the difficulty is that stations that hold that sort of information are likely to be the stations where people are armed. These are the places where incidents can happen. Almost by definition, these are the places where many problems will arise. On the one hand, there is a need to preserve intelligence and, on the other, there is a need to preserve evidence if there has been a crime. One can see from the Morris tribunal report and other reports how forensically aware people can get rid of evidence of a crime.

It is important that whoever is investigating this matter — perhaps the ombudsman — has speedy access to information. He may be able to arrange that but it appears that the procedure is that one must apply and that if the Garda Commissioner says "No", one asks the Minister for an adjudication, it comes back and the Garda Commissioner can then ask for it to go before a judge. There must be some way to get round this problem. While it is important to protect security-sensitive information, it is also important to protect evidence. The Minister referred to people not reading files and so on, which is fine. It may be possible to find a modus operandi which would put a stop to that, but still would not stop people going in while the evidence is still hot. This aspect should be reconsidered. It will have to be dealt with by way of protocol and by designation of the people working for the ombudsman, or the ombudsman himself or herself, who would have that kind of access, because these people would need to have security clearance. One could not have everyone tramping around these sensitive places in hobnail boots.

Mr. Justice Morris appears to have established some sort of working relationship with the Garda Commissioner. This is my main concern. Otherwise the matter has moved on, for which I thank the Minister. The key issue is the appointment of an ombudsman who exudes independence and whom people will see both in his or her person and past activity as independent people.