Joe O'Toole (Independent)

The eradication of the groceries order would leave us placing our trust in these people. I agree with Senator Ross on the issue of the cartels which operate all over the industry. I invite anybody, on their next 100 mile trip outside Dublin, to ascertain for me the number of small towns in Ireland where retail fuel outlets have differing prices on their boards. This does not exist unless somebody is trying to break into the local market. In some inspired way, apparently without conspiracies or the operation of a cartel, they suddenly come up with the magic figure of 102.9 cent. It is the same price down the road, yet nobody breaks the law.

It appears that we will not resolve this issue with the groceries order. However, from the point of view of the groceries order, it is important to ask the retail invoice price and what it means. Who determines the invoice price? In many ways, a groceries order which prohibits below cost selling allows somebody else to determine cost. Discounts, commissions, golden handshakes and hello money are considered when determining cost. None of these needs necessarily be taken into consideration. In effect, a situation obtains under the groceries order where the manufacturer can state the price of his or her product and nobody may sell below that price. That is anti-consumer. The consumer loses out whichever way we go on this. There will be a problem with or without the groceries order.

Earlier today, I remarked that we need to look at the way food is distributed. I have asked the IFA on numerous occasions why Irish lamb is cheaper in French supermarkets than in Irish ones. It is branded as Irish lamb and sells more cheaply per kilogramme. Why is that? This morning, I heard a farmer from Gorey say on Morning Ireland that he had returned to lamb production through his involvement in farmers' markets. He pointed out that the income he derived from selling at local markets was quadruple what he would expect in farm gate prices from factories and wholesalers.

One of our problems is that we tied ourselves up in regulations attached to retail outlets. Many years ago, Senator Ross and I tried vainly to block an extraordinarily complex set of rules and regulations for the establishment of restaurants. We failed. The regulations were designed to make it impossible to get into the business. Many are still extant. They include ridiculous requirements, such as two or three toilets in restaurants. A counter may be required in some situations and not in others. They have to meet certain regulations which are not required in other parts of Europe. When I compare prices between Ireland and other European countries, I come across the problem of regulations attached to retail outlets. In many cases, they are utterly unfair. This does not happen in other European countries and the cost continuously rises. The hygiene requirements and the extraordinary level of VAT in the food and restaurant industries also brings up prices. We should also examine and take on board these issues and be careful about them.

The problem with the consumer strategy group report — and I listened to its explanation in a committee last week — is that it is almost impossible, despite its best efforts, to compare like with like across various countries in Europe. For example, excise duty is high in Ireland but low in other countries. If a bottle of wine is added to a basket of groceries, the comparison is immediately knocked off kilter. These issues become difficult.

I agree with Senator Ross that we are discussing tonight the establishment of a new agency. This agency will have the powers requested by the Director of Consumer Affairs, Ms Carmel Foley, including rights to advocate and impose serious penalties, increased legislative authority and the money to police the decisions it makes. That is where the difficulty will arise. The consumer agency will not make a significant difference unless we change the law in order to give it power.

I concur with the remark by Senator Ross that, against the odds, Ms Foley is doing a superb job in terms of drawing our attention to these matters. She has been frustrated repeatedly when, having drawn attention to overpricing in Landsdowne Road and by banks, restaurants and bed and breakfasts, taking action involves bringing them to court to incur absurdly low fines. That is the difficulty we face. We need to look carefully at how we reflect the needs of consumers.

We need to put another issue on the record. We constantly discuss the rights of consumers. It would be helpful if we had what Ms Foley calls proactive consumers. The fact is that most of us are happy to park our car with the engine running outside the local convenience store, walk through the door and pay well over the odds for being able to do so. We will continue to do so. Irish people appear content to pay more than other consumers around Europe. That is another part of the problem and is why education must also be included. People must begin to ask the price of items. Perhaps the more affluent we become, the more we hate losing money or being overcharged — consider U2's court action today — and we will chase small amounts as well as others. It may well be that people question more what they are being charged, argue more and bring pressure to bear on that basis. I do not believe the consumer agency on its own, nor the groceries order, will bring about the changes we seek. The issue is how we get the product from manufacturer to consumer without the huge waste that occurs along the way.

In terms of my earlier reflection on farmers' markets, the efforts by Europe to make it impossible to sell local product at local prices in local venues must be resisted. I welcome the Minister of State to the House and thank him for being here. I ask him to note that in markets all over Europe, particularly in France, almost 90% of the produce in the beautifully laid out displays of fresh vegetables and fruit is not acceptable under European legislation. I have taken photographs to prove it. The French ignore that legislation while we tend to abide by those rules. As a consequence if one goes to fruit farms, tomato or strawberry growers in the east of Ireland one finds they throw out produce every week because it does not meet the size and sorting requirements of the European Union. That is also driving up our prices.