Mary Henry (Independent)

I thank all Senators who took part in this useful debate. I thank the Minister for his speech except where he commended the amendment to the motion to the House. Senator Ryan once told me, as a compliment, that motions I put down are so anodyne that they do not need amending. I would have thought this was one of these cases. However, I regret the amendment was tabled because it is difficult to get issues such as prisons, mental health and so forth discussed in the House. Like Senator White, Members understood this is why I tabled the motion. I asked a month ago for it to be discussed but there was no action. I, therefore, decided to take on the issue myself. Members will remember the little red hen who said that it is best to do things oneself.

I thank Senators for their comments which have been useful. I am glad the Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children, Deputy Tim O'Malley, is in the House. One matter that does concern me is that the Central Mental Hospital will be transferred to the prison site in north Dublin. I am not enthusiastic about this. When the House debated mental health, I believed the understanding of the Minister of State was that it would not be transferred to the prison site. It is important to remember that a substantial number of people in the Central Mental Hospital have not been convicted or even accused of crimes. Putting them on a penal site is a retrograde step. The Minister of State at the Department of Finance earlier stated:

The Tánaiste has asked her officials to examine the option of providing a separate governance structure for the hospital, by way of its own board, reflecting its importance as a national, tertiary psychiatric service.

I am concerned that it is only an option.

There are some concerns about the prisons being disposed of by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. Shanganagh Castle is worth an enormous amount of money. Senator Jim Walsh and other Members were right to raise the issue of work. At one stage, Shanganagh had an admirable horticulture centre from which the prison sold the produce. Due to cutbacks this had to be stopped. It is difficult for people coming out of prison to get employment. If anyone is like me, people are desperate to get gardeners. People who can grow almost anything or can get employment in horticulture centres are invaluable. It was a great sadness to me that this happened at Shanganagh and in St. Patrick's Institution.

I recall Mr. Justice Kinlen's remarks about value for the taxpayer. A sum of €9 million was spent in St. Patrick's Institution on a facility which was supposed to take on 12 to 16 year olds. Senator White will be appalled by this. However, from what I understand the place is empty. As Senator Cummins stated the amendment is simply a set of proposals. It is a little like the part of the speech that stated we have been provided with copies of the rules. Apparently we have been but we did not know this because they were downstairs. Using the term "will be" would have been more honest.

When will these bricks and mortar proposals come to fruition? There is so much in Mr. Justice Kinlen's report that could be implemented in the meantime. I agree with Senator White that his position should be made statutory immediately not just for his sake but in order that the inspectorate can become independent. It does not appear to be functioning properly.

Recently, I visited the maximum security prison in Spoleto, Italy. I was interested to see how much of the prison is run by the prisoners. These people are serving horrific sentences, many of whom have served 25 years of a 30-year sentence. This place really meant business but a large amount of work there was done by the prisoners. Payments were made for these jobs. As one person there told me this is important because when a child of an inmate is making his or her first holy communion, it is good that the prisoner can give him or her a few bob. It is good to make people as much a part of society as possible. I used to go to the plays in Mountjoy Prison where many of those participating would not give even their first names. Nowadays, many will give even their surnames. They thank, say, Bernadette, their fathers, mothers and the families for their support while they are in prison. They have a pride in what they are doing. Did the Minister of State see some of those prisoners taking the leaving certificate in Mountjoy Prison on television recently? They all gave their full names, explaining what they were doing.

All Members are agreed that rehabilitation is the important matter. One can put people in prison. It gets them out of the way for a certain length of time. However, it is an expensive way of doing so. It would be easier to employ people to whom prisoners were handcuffed and send them around on an eight hourly basis. We are spending huge amounts on running prisons. I accept there are vicious and violent people in prison. However, there are also many Senators would like to see out of prison, playing a more constructive part in society.