Joe O'Toole (Independent)

I fully understand the point made by the Leader regarding the change to the schedule and I do not have an objection to it. However, we should stick to a starting time, whatever it be, unless a matter of urgency arises. The reason I make that point is that I cannot remember another time in my 18 years in this House when 15 Seanad Bills were waiting to be dealt with in the other House. I find it difficult to understand why there is anything of urgency coming to us from the Dáil. I do not know how it organises its business and it is not my business to comment on it. We have worked our way through all those Bills. That we should meet early to deal with another Bill does not make sense. I know what the Leader is saying. I know we should be ready to adapt but in terms of having an orderly approach to procedure, we should only do so if it is absolutely necessary.

I carefully read and reread what Kevin Murphy said yesterday. I agree with what Senator Brian Hayes said about the need for a debate on this matter. The problem is I do not see a debate taking place here. I guarantee that if we have a debate on the matter here it will break down immediately along party lines. It will be about what happened when such and such a party was in Government. I thought there was a flaw in what Kevin Murphy said yesterday. He did not distinguish between accountability and responsibility and he used the words as synonyms for each other as he went along. There is a clear distinction. Whereas the Minister should always be responsible it is not clear that he or she should be always accountable. We need to make that distinction. Mr. Murphy's point is well made that if a committee of the Houses of the Oireachtas includes in its report that it does not know what level of responsibility we should seek from a Minister we have a serious problem. There is no doubt about that. We need to make a distinction between what somebody should do if he or she is responsible and what he or she should do when accountable. That will inform our debate.

I do not know whether Members would agree with the element of the Department of Education and Science budget which is sent back each year to the Exchequer because the money is not spent. Every day, including today, issues relating to the education budget, teacher numbers, school buildings, school transport and so on are raised. We cannot afford to put seat belts in school buses, to replace the school bus fleet, to put more teachers in our schools or to look after children with autism. How can that be the case if the Department of Education and Science is not drawing down money each year? It is impossible to explain that to the education community, including parents and teachers. School boards of management cannot understand how that is the case. Irrespective of what side of the House we are on, we know of school communities seeking action in their area whether for a child with special needs, to build a school, to get transport, to get an extra teacher or maintain a teacher. It all boils down to money, yet we are told that in the past eight years hundreds of millions of euro have not been drawn down. It is a nonsense. If it is a flaw in the way in which the books are kept in terms of the cash through-flow, that is an issue we need to deal with. It makes a laugh of the budgeting system that we spend a good deal of time dealing with this each year. Schools and educational establishments need more information and need to be better served by that budget.