Joanna Tuffy (Labour)

I apologise for having given out about the Minister for not being here. I did not realise there was a bereavement in his family and I sympathise with him, his wife and family.

Senator Minihan echoed something that the Minister of State said in that the Government is bringing forward the most radical ever legislative proposals in regard to the Garda Síochána. However, that is not true. The Labour Party has put more radical legislative proposals before this House. We have tabled amendments to this legislation and for five years have had a policy calling for an independent policing authority or board and an independent, one-person Garda ombudsman. The Bill contains some good reforms brought forward by the Minister. However, the most fundamental and radical reforms are not included, namely the authority and the ombudsman.

In his speech, the Minister of State repeated the fallacy that Northern Ireland is somehow unique and that its society is different from ours. However, it is not. Northern Ireland has adopted what is the norm in the British Isles and becoming more widespread throughout the world. It started with the 1964 UK Police Act when policing authorities were established. Other EU countries, such as Holland and Belgium, have brought in these types of reforms as has New South Wales, as I mentioned before. There are decentralised and regionalised systems with oversight in other European countries, such as the Lander in Germany. Many other police forces in other democratic societies throughout the world have had to examine themselves and bring about reform and they are still in the process of doing so.

Reform of the Northern Ireland police force started before the Patten commission. In fact, it was the 1995 report by Senator Maurice Hayes which started the whole process and gave rise to the 1998 Act which brought in the Northern Ireland ombudsman which was subsequently endorsed by the Patten commission. Senator Hayes said that the committee might delay matters but it did not do so in the North because the ombudsman had already been introduced. One can introduce reforms and also have the commission. One can consider the issue of the ombudsman now and then bring in an independent policing authority. The Minister of State said that a three person commission or board is not unusual, but neither is a one person ombudsman. This is best practice as recommended by Senator Maurice Hayes and we should listen to him.

The Northern Ireland commission does not use members of the PSNI to carry out its investigations. However, it does use members of other police forces, such as Hong Kong. In his speech the Minister of State stated that we need proper oversight by the representatives of the people over the Garda. This is not provided for in this legislation. The type of shake-up required, including training with social workers, was also mentioned by me and Professor Dermot Walsh. That should not be delivered by the Minister and the Garda Commissioner. The public will not trust that system. How will we know the reforms are being carried out? How will we have a say? We need an independent authority which would not, as the Minister misrepresented, be an unelected, unrepresentative authority. It will have elected representatives if it is done in the same fashion as the UK and Northern Ireland.

As Senator Norris pointed out, Ireland is not unique in having this difficulty. We know this has happened in Northern Ireland and there has been a crisis of confidence in the police throughout the world, including in what are considered to be democratic, open societies. This happened in Belgium in the aftermath of the Dutroux case, it has happened in New South Wales and in the Los Angeles police force. The test of a democratic society is how it responds to a crisis and I do not think the Minister has the guts to do what is needed. This includes introducing the type of reforms that have been carried out in Northern Ireland and elsewhere.