Shane Ross (Independent)

It is a pity a Minister will not be present but there is nothing to be done if this was agreed by the Whips. It serves to devalue the debate that there is no Government representative to listen to Members' contributions. This experiment, which has so far been useful, is treated with a certain amount of disdain if it is not attended by a Minister. For all such discussions in future, we should insist that the relevant Minister remains in the House for the duration of the debate.

The Minister made an interesting contribution on this matter. By definition, the benefits of the European Union are historical. For Ireland, membership has undoubtedly been tremendously beneficial and useful. Senator Bradford movingly and pointedly observed that the great but unproveable benefit of the EU is that we have had few conflicts of any nature since its formation. The evidence suggests that the efforts to make a political union have been extremely successful. There are occasional difficulties but those conflicts that have arisen have been resolved not by force of arms but by democratic and political means. This is a major and almost unanswerable argument for the benefits of the Union in the past.

I spent the weekend before last in Berlin where the 60th anniversary VE Day was being celebrated. This was an interesting experience because in Moscow, London, Paris and many other places throughout Europe, citizens were comfortable in celebrating this occasion. However, it was difficult for the Germans to celebrate their own defeat and the awful historical footprints of which they are to some extent ashamed. The celebrations in Berlin were undertaken in a reasonably dignified manner. They focussed primarily on citizens' awareness of their status as good Europeans and a recognition of their participation in a great European movement which has allowed them to put the war behind them to some extent. In addition, in a move of detached contrition and in a moving ceremony, Berlin opened a Holocaust memorial. Moreover, the city also had a day for democracy, the celebration of which took place over two days. In Europe, one can always have two bank holidays even though other countries seem to require only one.