Brendan Ryan (Labour)

That will push up the costs. Other costs are due to appalling inefficiencies in our society because of the lack of competition in areas such as banking, insurance and the failure to invest in infrastructure, but I do not wish to be diverted.

The fundamental issue, and I do not understand the hostility to this, is that the only way to provide for people in their retirement is by funding it from the day they start work. When I started work, 6.5% of my salary was deducted for my pension. If I had been given a choice I would have postponed it for a year, and then for another year and another year after that.

I have no ideological baggage and I am open to persuasion on how this can be done. However, we need independent evaluation of the efficiency of the use of any money used to fund pensions in the future. I share with Senator Ross the view that the Pensions Board is not qualified, competent or able to win confidence to do that. My union, the TUI, has a long-standing dispute involving retired members about the advice they got on pensions from allegedly competent and qualified fund managers. Much of this kind of thing goes on and there is much confusion and uncertainty.

None of this gets away from the fact that pensions must be funded from the day people start work. That cannot be done by persuading people to voluntarily hand over money. It must be part of their social obligations. If it is compulsory people will see it as a tax and if it is optional they will not, but we should not make the idea of having a pension optional.

There is an intermediate position on extending working lives, whereby those who want to continue to work are allowed do so for a marginal financial benefit. A blanket decision to change retirement ages is neither economically necessary nor socially desirable. Some people are unable to continue, some would love to continue and some would need a transitional period of time between work and retirement. This question will only be solved if everybody, including employers, accept their responsibilities, if it is compulsory and if State and private pensions are integrated in a way which gives people maximum flexibility in securing a reasonable income in retirement relative to their working experience.