John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)

I welcome the Minister to the House. Senator Norris referred to incidents in novels but if he reads the life of Edmund Burke he will see the same events happened frequently in real life at that time. The lesson of this history is that the religion of the land is superior to the denomination to which a person belongs. Maybe this trait is still evident in Irish society. In Burke's time it was convenient to change religion to keep title.

I echo Senator Mansergh's points about the arcane and archaic nature of many of the procedures associated with land transfer and tenure. I share his sneaking suspicion that some of these devices have continued in perpetuity to the advantage of people in lawyers' offices rather than to the advantage of their clients.

This Bill is important and welcome. Almost everybody is at some stage involved either in a land transfer or in raising a loan against land or property. Loans have often been jeopardised by the time it took to register the interests of the bank or the lender on the deed. That has, however, sometimes acted to the advantage of the person borrowing the money, when the bank subsequently sought its security and found it was defective. I know of one particular instance where that was the case.

Legislation needs to reflect the technology available to us. I am glad to see that development included in this Bill. When I entered the House in 1989 there were frequent complaints about the length of time it took to produce the Official Report. Now we can log onto our computers shortly after the debate and find the record there, which is a compliment to the Editor of Debates and her staff. That is an example of the speed with which work can be done.

It is important to have the latest e-conveyancing and e-government systems available and properly used. There must, however, be a paper backup. There has been much discussion about that matter in regard to electronic voting. In this case the hard copy must exist to support the information on the hard disk in the computer because we all know what can happen to computers.

The delay in identifying title to property has a bearing on infrastructural development. In building any long stretch of motorway, or the Luas line, there must be several properties without proper title. For example, establishing the title of a rural cottage handed down three or four generations by verbal agreement, poses extraordinary difficulty for the descendant who wants to sell the property when it has acquired significant value. While it is proper that it should be difficult to establish title, there is a need for a more orderly system.

I was somewhat surprised, given the common tradition in the two countries, to hear the Minister say it takes five procedures to establish title in Ireland whereas it takes only two in the United Kingdom. It takes 21 days to register property in the United Kingdom and 38 days here, almost twice the time. The Minister explained this anomaly by referring to legislation introduced in the United Kingdom.

The Land Acts of the 19th century, including the Gladstone Act, and the progressive Acts introduced by early Irish Governments performed the extraordinary task of transferring the title of numerous properties to the lessees and giving them freehold. The Griffith Valuation was another example of effective legislation at a time when people wielded quills but evaluated the land in a short period.

The Minister mentioned the lack of provision for dealing with errors in the Registry of Deeds, where that error originated in the Land Registry. I had an experience with the sale of agricultural land in the 1970s. When we received the certified copy of the Land Registry map the piece of land for sale was not that identified on the map. It was across the road. I was not aware of the import of that until my solicitor pointed out to me that it would almost require an Act to rectify the situation if an error had not been made. He did not know of an error having been made, although one had in fact been made by the Land Registry. It turned out to be all right but it was a salutary experience, particularly as the Central Bank intervened with credit guidelines on the price of the land. Between the date of the sale and the date of the closing, the price virtually halved. That concentrated the mind wonderfully on some of the issues that we are discussing.

The most important thing the Minister said was at the end of his speech, when he mentioned the creation of the Property Registration Authority. It is sensible for the Registry of Deeds and the Land Registry to be made into one statutory body. I very much welcome that and I look forward to seeing more detail.

I wish to read from a letter that I received from a solicitor in the south east. The issue to which it relates is more concerned with the stamp duty offices rather than the registration of deeds, but it flows from that. It states:

I am writing to you about the severe penalties being imposed by the Stamps Office in connection with the 'late' stamping of Deeds.

On the 27th September we sent off a Deed dated 30th July together with a cheque for €4,950 for stamping. Technically speaking Deeds should be lodged within one month of execution. You will see that the Revenue now impose a penalty of €610, almost 12% of the total amount of Stamp Duty. Because there can be a hold up in getting signatures etc., I feel that short delays do not merit such heavy financial penalties. The State or its Agencies are not that efficient in matters themselves, and they do not incur penalties for lengthy delays, not to mention slight delays of a month or so.

Is there anything that can be done about this practice, as it is manifestly unjust and all the more so, in view of the huge amounts of Stamp Duty that are being paid in transactions at the moment?

The Government is continually complaining about the prevalent 'rip off culture' but when you see Revenue imposing charges at this level it is clear that greed now contaminates the State as well.

Something should be done about this and reasonable rates should be imposed.

Perhaps somebody in some relevant quarter might address that issue and investigate how it might be rectified. It appears on the face of it that those penalties are extremely severe.

Having said that, I very much welcome the Bill, which is long overdue. It will make a significant improvement in how property is conveyed and title is established. I hope adequate staffing and resources will be available to do all the work. That is a central issue.

The only thing left to do after all this will be to regulate the auctioneers. That will be the final piece of the jigsaw. The Minister has proposals in that regard.