Séamus Brennan (Dublin South, Fianna Fail)

We discussed this at length on Committee Stage in the Dáil. This issue concerns prosecutions, a very important part of my Department's efforts to control fraud and abuse in social welfare schemes. Prosecutions are an important deterrent in combatting social welfare fraud. We have spoken at length about improving the lot of lone parents and others such as widows and the elderly, and of increasing child benefit. To do this, we must be absolutely firm on welfare fraud and make it clear that there is no scope or tolerance for it.

The introduction of a limit as proposed by the Senator would seriously restrict the Department from taking a prosecution in cases where the evidence came to light more than five years after the event. It does not make much sense to remove that weapon from the Department's armoury when its single purpose is the detection of fraud. It is better to leave the weapon with the Department so that if the period in question is longer than five years, it can still be dealt with.

The restriction proposed by the Senator could have the effect of weakening the Department's control programme which is aimed at ensuring that the payments it makes, which are funded by the taxpayer and social contributions, are only paid to those entitled to them. I am not suggesting the Senator is proposing that we be soft on this issue but I am reluctant to weaken the Department's weaponry and options when it comes to tackling fraud. I am fully supportive of improving the income, benefits and quality of life of all the people for whom the Department has responsibility for supporting, but the price to be paid is that we are quite ruthless when it comes to fraud. The people that are being robbed are those who need the funds.

In 2004, 503 case were forwarded to the Chief State Solicitor's office to start proceedings. A total of 282 cases were finalised in court of which ten were served with prison sentences, 26 received suspended sentences, 158 were fined, three received community service and 43 received the benefit of the Probation Act. The remaining penalties included cases which were bound to the peace or adjourned with liberty to re-enter. Interestingly, savings for January 2005 amounted to €27 million, which is 82% of our target. The Senator can see that it is a very important part of our armoury. Currently, we are attempting to ensure that electronic payments in particular are free of fraud. It is a new, developing area as more people opt to have their funds paid to their bank account and as everyone is aware, electronic funds transfer is more anonymous.

We need the freedom to go back and pursue cases over the period in question and it would not be helpful to shorten it. Apart from fraud, there are also overpayments by the Department. I wish to make it clear that in such cases we agree a methodology of repayment with the person concerned and it is not done without his or her agreement. I note the Senator's point. However, when I looked at the issue carefully, I concluded that to weaken the Department's tools to tackle fraud would not send a good signal.