John Paul Phelan (Fine Gael)

I wholeheartedly support the Bill proposed by my colleague, Senator Cummins. I am slightly perplexed by some of the arguments I have heard tonight from those who oppose this legislation. Senator Cummins outlined in his opening remarks the numbers of Members of the other House who have already expressed their support for the idea behind his proposal so it is slightly puzzling to listen to the objections that have been raised. Senator Cummins is basing his proposal on the interdepartmental report on the gaming and the lotteries Acts and I think it is entirely justified.

Senator Fitzgerald's and the Government's central difficulty with the proposed legislation has been the question of how to police it. How is anything policed? How is the sale of alcohol policed? If one walks into a pub in Dublin or any city tonight, particularly the superpubs that could contain more than 1,000 people, how do staff know who is 18 and who is not? They ask for identification if they are doing their job correctly. Surely, it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that the staff of the tote would be in a similar position to ask for identification from people placing bets.

A number of Government speakers raised the issue of the automated machines which will be introduced in a number of different parts of the country over the next couple of months and years. I share Senator Norris's doubts about the introduction of these machines. Providing such easy access to gambling facilities is a retrograde rather than a positive step. It is not a good idea to treat an addiction to gambling lightly and install unmanned machines at different locations. I am not a killjoy and I do not see any problem with people gambling. I have gambled on a number of occasions, although I would not be a regular gambler. Now and then, I have a flutter and I have recently been in the bookies with regard to the by-elections in Kildare and Meath. I backed both Fine Gael candidates to win because I think they will.

It is right and proper that if someone under the age of 18 cannot buy a lottery ticket or gamble through an on-course bookie, he or she should not be allowed to gamble on the tote. It is irresponsible and wrong. I was not familiar with the legislation that governed this area until Senator Cummins brought it to my attention. I compliment him for the work and research he has invested in recent months.

A number of Government speakers have inferred that this proposal would have a negative impact on the racing sector. This is not true, since it would be shocking if Ireland's gambling sector depended on children under the age of 18 years. It is not unreasonable to suggest that a similar barrier existing in other areas should extend to betting and gambling on the tote. I would not have a heavy heart in voting on this, but whether we vote by pressing buttons or walking through lobbies, Senator Cummins' proposal is eminently sensible.

People tend to be cynical about politicians. If they were to read the names and details of the Members of the other House who supported this idea when it was first mooted and then see the other side of this House vote it down, they would see that it is rank hypocrisy of the highest order. I understand that a number of people did not support it then and do not do so now, but for people to change their views in order to vote against this Bill in the name of political expediency makes no sense.