David Norris (Independent)

At sixpence a shot, even the Minister of State could afford it. I quietly discarded all the tickets that had not won and when I nonchalantly turned around the corner, everyone wanted to see my tickets. When I said I had not looked at them, they said I got first, second and third. They were so impressed by my racing knowledge that they followed my advice for the remainder of the afternoon with totally disastrous results.

My only other experience was being sent by The Sunday Tribune to Killarney races. I invested heavily in Delia Murphy because I always liked her singing of the Spinning Wheel and various other songs, which included the words "If I were a blackbird I'd whistle and sing". I thought that she deserved some support. When she took a belly flop into the first fence, the decent people in the tote told me to leave it alone. They were very kind because I got some unofficial advice at one point.

While people certainly do not want to be killjoys, there is a question which has not been answered. It cannot morally be answered by the type of criteria the Minister included in his speech. Members on all sides agree with the Minister that there is enjoyment and entertainment involved in racing, which for most people can be completely harmless. However, he said that these sports contribute substantially to the economic and employment sectors. This is not an argument when dealing with the welfare of children. As yet, we do not know what happens in respect of children. The Minister poses it as if he knows.

He said that people under the age of 18 are accompanied by their parents. We do not know that is the case. There has been no factual information produced in the House in that regard. He said that persons under 18 years attending horse race meetings do so under the accompaniment and control of their parents and, as such, would also invest with the tote in a controlled social environment. I do not know if that is the case. I strongly doubt it. No evidence has been placed before the House this evening that this is the case. I would prefer if the Minister said that possibly a significant social factor has been drawn to the attention of the House and he would have it examined, but he did not quite say that. Instead of being concerned about the welfare of children, he is concerned that attendance at the races might be diminished if this requirement was introduced. We are dealing with attendance at the races and the income from that activity. It should give us cause for thought if there is a substantial contribution by children to what is a multi-million euro industry. We should ask are children investing more than €1 each way.

I do not like the sound of the new machines which appear to be dangerous. If one can go to a machine to make a bet, there is no interaction with any human being and there is no supervision whatever. These are precisely the circumstances in which children could be liable to become addicted. In my area of the city, we have been infested with places which are full of one arm bandits and so on. I know that young people, poor people, elderly people and widows have become seriously addicted to these gambling machines and, even though the initial bets are quite small, they have lost considerable sums of money. These people have got themselves into debt and trouble.

My final point is a bit of a clincher, even though it has probably been made by the proposers of the Bill. The interdepartmental review group, which reported in 2000, made it unambiguously clear that an age limit of 18 years should be enforced vigorously. The list it provided included gambling machines in gambling dens, lotto and the tote. If we establish an official body to draw up a report and then blithely ignore that report in the absence of information that supports on a factual basis the Minister's side, we will be in some difficulty. I have no problem supporting Senator Cummins's Bill.